More Religious Nutters

[Geronimo]

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[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Perfection
Oh, you're using "order" to mean fairness or moral rightiousness, not having nice neat patterns like a snowflake.

I mean both, but why should we be concerned about the snowflake?

Still, there's no need for God for the universe to be overall fair or moral, it's just that ours probably isn't.

How can you have morality without someone to decide what is moral and what isn't? Again, how can you deserve something without an authority to tell you whether you do or do not?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Blake
It doesn't matter how far you go along the buddhist path, it all brings peace. Nibbana may be the final stop, but the journey itself provides immense benefits.

I could never grasp the letting go of desire thing. For things like addictions I can see, but not desire for all things. I think you can still desire things and be happy, and at the end of your life you can be satisfied. But to each his own.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I could never grasp the letting go of desire thing. For things like addictions I can see, but not desire for all things. I think you can still desire things and be happy, and at the end of your life you can be satisfied. But to each his own.

Actually, you can desire things and be happy, it actually is mainly the TYPE of desires (and in meditation, you are meant to let go of absolutely everything with no exceptions). As a rule though, the fewer things you desire, the happier you will be... but you don't start by going all the way and trying to let go of all desires, you start by letting those ones which OBVIOUSLY hurt you, fade away.


I think it can be more useful to say;
"Letting go of FIXATIONS"

There's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying the moment. You don't want to be going around fixated on something ELSE, because then you DON'T enjoy the moment. And when you do get whatever you were fixated on, you probably don't enjoy it much anyway, and then it's in the past, and your fixated on the next thing (or are still fixated on the thing which is now in the past). You've basically been so fixated you've managed to not enjoy anything much.

It's a lot more enjoyable to just hang out in the moment and not be fixated on past or future.

[Jon Miller]

I would find a life withuot desire to be very unfulfilling and pointless.

I think the issue is one of having the correct desires, rather then having few desires.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Blake


Actually, you can desire things and be happy, it actually is mainly the TYPE of desires (and in meditation, you are meant to let go of absolutely everything with no exceptions). As a rule though, the fewer things you desire, the happier you will be... but you don't start by going all the way and trying to let go of all desires, you start by letting those ones which OBVIOUSLY hurt you, fade away.


I think it can be more useful to say;
"Letting go of FIXATIONS"

There's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying the moment. You don't want to be going around fixated on something ELSE, because then you DON'T enjoy the moment. And when you do get whatever you were fixated on, you probably don't enjoy it much anyway, and then it's in the past, and your fixated on the next thing (or are still fixated on the thing which is now in the past). You've basically been so fixated you've managed to not enjoy anything much.

It's a lot more enjoyable to just hang out in the moment and not be fixated on past or future.

Honestly I would be a Buddhist then like you are, except I can't meditate, at least not like you do. I've tried many times.

[Elok]

I predict Blake will now offer a tutorial on E-Z meditation. BTW, Blake, are you Mahayana, Theravada, or something else?

[Blake]

I am Theravada. Specifically I affiliate myself with the Thai Forest Tradition founded by Ajahn Chah, not only is it very true to Buddha, it's also popular in the west. This means, it has western buddhist monks, instead of Asians. This is extremely significant because monks always teach from their own life experience (the good monks refer to scripture very little) and so it's a lot easier to learn from a western teacher (who has comparable experiences) than from an eastern teacher (who probably also speaks english with a thick accent and uses an excessive number of loan words).

[Perfection]

Originally posted by Blake
It succeeds pragmatically. The point of science is to learn something useful,

Utility doesn't determine theoretical sucess. Einstiens' general relativity was hailed as a success years before its first practical application (GPS). It's explanitory power and predcitive sucess that makes a theory good.

Originally posted by Blake
Buddhism succeeds in this regard. It succeeds far far far far far far far beyond science, in terms of improving enjoyment of life.

Certainly it has some wisdom that can help make life happier, but plenty of cultures have that. I don't see how Buddhism is so special in that regard. In addition, science provides tools that can help the mind when Buddhism can't, like in the instances of mental disorders.

Originally posted by Blake
It doesn't matter. The benefit of Buddhism are received by the practitioner. Who cares if it's "correct" or not if it works superbly.

Theoretical understanding can yield results that folk understanding can't. The scientific community hasn't come up with somethign that has radically improved the world, but there's no reason to think it can't.

Originally posted by Blake
Which is a large part of the reason why science can do whatever it wants. Buddhism doesn't care about verification problems. If it's personally verifiable then it's verified.

Well, if it works for some people, I agree that it is fine in that regard. What I am concerned with is thatBuddhism is practiced in favor of scientific theoreys of the mind and that people disregard science instead of adjusting thier views to match.

[Elok]

Dammit, Perf, what do you have against burnooses? You're evading the question!

[Perfection]

Originally posted by Kidicious
I mean both, but why should we be concerned about the snowflake?

Well, snowflakes are neat patterns in the universe. so are human bodies.

Originally posted by Kidicious
How can you have morality without someone to decide what is moral and what isn't? Again, how can you deserve something without an authority to tell you whether you do or do not?

The authority could be humanity as a whole by which the universe by some spooky means follows.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Perfection
Certainly it has some wisdom that can help make life happier, but plenty of cultures have that.

Except happiness is really the very purpose of Buddhism. It's not just a side aspect or side effect.

I don't see how Buddhism is so special in that regard. In addition, science provides tools that can help the mind when Buddhism can't, like in the instances of mental disorders.

I'll tell you something.

Before I started Buddhist practice I had Asperger's Syndrome.

I no longer have Asperger's Syndrome.

While not a mental illness, it is an intractable. According to psychology.

Buddhism doesn't care what your brain is like.

Well, if it works for some people, I agree that it is fine in that regard. What I am concerned with is thatBuddhism is practiced in favor of scientific theoreys of the mind and that people disregard science instead of adjusting thier views to match.

What does it matter? Try to come up with an instance, where a buddhist monk being ignorant of science, actually matters - actually matters to him, actually matters to the people he interacts with.

Bearing in mind that buddhism is a heck of a lot more effective than psychology both at developing your own mind and the minds of other people. Monks have a superb understanding of what actually causes people problems in their lives. It's really a very funny thing, how people will think that their problems and stuff are highly unique when in reality all people pretty much suffer from the same problems. Problems like conflict with other people. And these problems, arise from much the same causes, like, lack of communication.

And Buddhism is (and buddhist monks are) excellent at teaching communication skills, opening up the mind makes it so much easier to communicate with other people.

That's where Buddhism rules and Psychology drools. Psychology attempts to catalog everything, make a million different psychological disorders. Buddhism is like a grand unified theory in comparison. Amazingly simple, elegant and accurate, explaining all phenomena astutely and providing highly effective remedies.

The main difference is, Buddhists aren't in it for the money (a greedy buddhist is a useless buddhist). And people find it hard to believe, that something which is given freely can be far more effective than something which costs hundreds of dollars. It's hard to make money out of Buddhism, because someone who is greedy wont be a good buddhist. Because buddhism is abysmal at making money, it's basically incompatible with capitalism, unlike science. Buddhists tend to consume a lot less, so it's bad for the economy. That's how it is.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Honestly I would be a Buddhist then like you are, except I can't meditate, at least not like you do. I've tried many times.

Buddhism isn't just about meditation. And here's another quote from Ajahn Chah.

"Don’t think that only sitting with the eyes closed is practice. If you do think this way, then quickly change your thinking. Steady practice is keeping mindful in every posture, whether sitting, walking, standing or lying down. When coming out of sitting, don’t think that you’re coming out of meditation, but that you are only changing postures. If you reflect in this way, you will have peace. Wherever you are, you will have this attitude of practice with you constantly. You will have a steady awareness within yourself."

I actually reverse that a bit. Don't think you need to sit with your eyes closed to practice. In fact, I think it's a lot easier to start by practicing with your eyes open, in every day life, and then once you start building that awareness, once you start developing the right attitudes, THEN is a good time to start meditation. Got to learn to crawl before you can walk.

I've decided to just permanently sig-link to the Buddhist Monk who taught me everything I need to know about Buddhism, he's a very popular and funny monk.

[Elok]

Ah, Blake? You're nattering on and on about a specific subject without regard for whether people around you care. You're still Aspie.

[Blake]

Buddhism lesson.

I want to return to the deserve thing.

There is precisely one person who decides whether you are happy or not.

Come on, take a wild guess who it may be.


You decide whether or not you get to be happy.

Like someone may come up to you an insult you. You can get pissed off (be angry), or you can laugh (be happy).

You might be doing something, and someone unexpectably shows up to help you. You can get be thankful (happy) or get pissed off and tell them to sod off because you're doing fine on your own (unhappy).


It doesn't matter WHAT other people do. It's always up to YOU how you react to them. You get to decide whether, and to what degree, the interaction makes you happy or unhappy. It's not up to them!

There's no better way to annoy someone who is trying to be insulting by refusing to be insulted by them, so the insulter does not get to choose whether the insultee will be hurt or pleased by the insult.

You don't have to let other people control your happiness. You can revoke their control over your happiness.


And now look at the question in THAT light, where you really ARE the only person who chooses whether or not to be happy.

Do you deserve to be happy?