Scientists: Creationist President Would Doom U.S.

[Perfection]

Originally posted by Geronimo
I agree that god of the gaps has no place in almost any secular setting but it's not anti-scientific if it carefully conforms to current observation and tested theory.

In fact someone could even be a scientist and hold a God of the gaps view so long as they did not integrate it into their work or professional speculation supporting their work. They'd probably hold the particular God of the gaps interpretation that acts of God are like singularities. They must always be hidden from observation by some means. A kind of no naked acts of God principle. In which case why would they say "screw the evidence"?

I get what you're saying here and that might be the case for certain viewpoints of God (like a sort of silent benefactor) but using it to reject inductive logic and scientific theory as the Creationists do would definitely not conform to current observation and tested theory.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Perfection
I get what you're saying here and that might be the case for certain viewpoints of God (like a sort of silent benefactor) but using it to reject inductive logic and scientific theory as the Creationists do would definitely not conform to current observation and tested theory.

God of the gaps is the least of the the Creationists (big C) problems.

[Perfection]

I'll agree with that.

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Will
I've said that I don't think we should teach anything in school that specifically supports a certian religion(s) or specically opposes a certian religion(s).

Will, the problem with this IMHO is that every single topic is sensible for a religion, even if a small one.

To give a you physic-related example, the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, which is a the seat of Mecca and Medina, both holy cities of Islam, and which is also a model for some sunni mulsim, said that the earth has no rotation (see this).

Shall we stop teaching about the rotation of the earth in order to make no offense to some Muslims? Because is the Earth in fact has rotation, the grand mufti, a Salafi top authority, is wrong, and, by extension, the Salafi doctrine may appear wrong to some kids.

So, sorry for coming back to this, but shall we teach about Earth rotation in school?

[Sarxis]

Re: Scientists: Creationist President Would Doom U.S.

Originally posted by Gatekeeper


Here's a thought: Every time an intelligent design/creationist attempts to get laws enacted in order to infiltrate a science classroom with his or her religious mumbo-jumbo, a scientist should do the exact same thing — except Sunday school classes and worship services should be targeted.

After all, if it's OK for religious types to force their views into public science classrooms, surely it's OK for scientists to do the same in churches, right? Quid pro quo?

I am fairly certain it isn't right for ANYONE to force their views on another. But in secular classrooms, this happens more often than not with the teaching of evolution.

However, here's a more practical suggestion: Those who must deal with this crap need to emphasize the point that, if ID/creationism takes root in our public schools, we (as in America) can pretty much forget about being a source for scientific breakthroughs in, oh, probably 10 to 20 years' time (that's about how long it'll take an ID/creationism "indoctrinated" generation of students to impart their artificial stupidity onto society at large). That will have a ripple effect into other areas of society as well.

America has been doing fine up until now with a mostly Christian background, why would this change all of a sudden? If anything, there should be a honest undertaking of both good scientists and studied theologians to come to the truth, and not banter about what they 'think' is the truth.

Also, while this is all going on, do these ID/creationism fools realize that China, India, Europe and other nations will be pushing ahead with actual science education?

Isn't it coincidence that the decline of the U.S. over the last several years seems largely due to an atmosphere of apathy and greed, and not due to what many would call "old superstitions"? It seems to me the more the nation falls away from its "religious-roots", the more it falls into moral decay.

And besides all this.. is China, Indian, Europe our enemies, or our friends? Why does the U.S. need to out-do everyone else? The world isn't ours alone. And whether evolution or creationism is taught, or not taught in schools, how exactly does that effect the overall education of a student?

I think you are overreacting to an issue that, if I had to guess, you have no tolerance for. And it is your intolerance that reveals just what state your heart is in.

[yaroslav]

Re: Re: Scientists: Creationist President Would Doom U.S.

Originally posted by Sarxis
Isn't it coincidence that the decline of the U.S. over the last several years seems largely due to an atmosphere of apathy and greed, and not due to what many would call "old superstitions"?

I am very sorry, but I visited your fine country in 2006 and 2007 due to work reasons, and I see it far from declining

And besides all this.. is China, Indian, Europe our enemies, or our friends?

I do not live in India or China, but I can´t speak for all Europe, but I would like to think that you can count Europe as a friend or even a relative

[DinoDoc]

Re: Re: Re: Scientists: Creationist President Would Doom U.S.

Originally posted by yaroslav
I would like to think that you can count Europe as a friend or even a relative

Events point in the opposite way.

And besides all this.. is China, Indian, our enemies, or our friends?

Friends? No. Nothing in the history of either country could lead you to that conclusion. Something less than enemies though for now.

[yaroslav]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Scientists: Creationist President Would Doom U.S.

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Events point in the opposite way.

That would be another topic for discussion, I guess, but my humble opinion is that even if there are disagreements, the core beliefs (democracy, individual rights, etc) are the same in Europe and in America (not like in China right now).

[Heraclitus]

He is right, we're family, It doesn’t matter that we think you’re clumsy, arrogant, puritan and sometimes downright stupid, because we're stuck with you.


We just hope you love our decadent, pessimistic, atheistic, hypocritical asses too.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Will
Some people here seem to think that it is a student's right to learn evolution so he/she can make a decision about which idea is true. What about the children of atheists who were raised to believe in evolution? Don't they have the right to learn creationism?

Parents have the right to raise their children how they see fit. They further have the right to vote for local officals to run schools how they see fit. And they have to badly screw up in either case to even garner even slight national attention such as the Azteca schools a while back. Not teaching evolution will not have significant ramifications to the vast majority of students, and the ones who go into fields where it is important will presumably learn about it.

Secondly you use the phrase "believe in evolution" whereas "convinced by evolution" would be more appropriate. The second phrase allows for further evidence.

How many people can say that they have in fact looked at the fossil record? I'd imagine that belief in evolution is the best way to describe it. Other people have done their homework though, and hopefully they aren't all full of it.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Whoha
How many people can say that they have in fact looked at the fossil record? I'd imagine that belief in evolution is the best way to describe it. Other people have done their homework though, and hopefully they aren't all full of it.

Do you take the same skeptical approach to the existence of cities you haven't personally visited?

[Whoha]

I "believe in" many other scientific theories that I haven't personally observed evidence of, but don't ask me to justify it with evidence that I don't know and can't produce. If it is important to me though I will want to see the evidence. Cities however I can view on television, and have read about in history books,and so on. To contrast that with high school biology's use of evolution as a black box is wrong, and it wasn't until College that anything about it was taught.

[Perfection]

Re: Re: Scientists: Creationist President Would Doom U.S.

Originally posted by Sarxis
I am fairly certain it isn't right for ANYONE to force their views on another. But in secular classrooms, this happens more often than not with the teaching of evolution.

Well, I don't think evolution should be "forced" onto anyone, but certainly people should come to understand such an important biological principle as evolution by natural selection. To paraphrase my high school biology teacher, "you don't have to believe it but you have to know it". They should also understand how prevalent it is in the biological community (it's the only theory they use).

Originally posted by Sarxis
America has been doing fine up until now with a mostly Christian background, why would this change all of a sudden? If anything, there should be a honest undertaking of both good scientists and studied theologians to come to the truth, and not banter about what they 'think' is the truth.

The academic case for evolution is closed. Biologists aren't going to reopen it because of objections by religious folk.

Originally posted by Sarxis
Isn't it coincidence that the decline of the U.S. over the last several years seems largely due to an atmosphere of apathy and greed, and not due to what many would call "old superstitions"? It seems to me the more the nation falls away from its "religious-roots", the more it falls into moral decay.

I don't particularly think the US is on the decline. More other countries are on the incline. Only 2% of people are Americans it seems natural that in a world where other nations can compete fairly that our relative power will decrease.

Originally posted by Sarxis
And besides all this.. is China, Indian, Europe our enemies, or our friends? Why does the U.S. need to out-do everyone else? The world isn't ours alone. And whether evolution or creationism is taught, or not taught in schools, how exactly does that effect the overall education of a student?

Well, my view is that Creationism is part of a bigger problem of the religious community rejecting science. The ability to recognize good science versus junk science is a vital skill that is only going to get more important down the road. People who don't are going to make bad decisions that will negatively affect themselves and others.

Originally posted by Sarxis
I think you are overreacting to an issue that, if I had to guess, you have no tolerance for. And it is your intolerance that reveals just what state your heart is in.

There certainly is a lot of overreaction, and I do agree that many that support teaching evolution go too far. However, there definitely is a need to teach this and I don't think it's intorant to tell people what the scientific institution says and that it's the whole scientific institution that says that.

[SpencerH]

I love these debates. The irony of secular evolutionists playing "chicken little" and wringing their hands over the possible teaching of an alternative argument (I wont call creationism a theory) is just wonderful.

[Whaleboy]

We do tend to get a little exasperated when a large and powerful number of people seek to reject the same principles of reasoning that resulted in such controversial statements as "1 + 1 = 2".