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  • Scientists: Creationist President Would Doom U.S.

    By Karin Zeitvogel
    Fri Jan 4, 6:46 PM ET

    A day after ordained Baptist minister Mike Huckabee finished first in the opening round to choose a Republican candidate for the White House, scientists warned Americans against electing a leader who doubts evolution.

    "The logic that convinces us that evolution is a fact is the same logic we use to say smoking is hazardous to your health or we have serious energy policy issues because of global warming," University of Michigan professor Gilbert Omenn told reporters at the launch of a book on evolution by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS).

    "I would worry that a president who didn't believe in the evolution arguments wouldn't believe in those other arguments either. This is a way of leading our country to ruin," added Omenn, who was part of a panel of experts at the launch of "Science, Evolution and Creationism."

    Former Arkansas governor Huckabee said in a debate in May that he did not believe in evolution.

    A poll conducted last year showed that 53 percent of Americans do believe that humans developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life — the theory of evolution — while 47 percent do not.

    Some of those polled said they believed in both evolution and the opposing theory of creationism — the belief that God created mankind at a single point in time.

    The evolution versus creationism debate has crept into American schools and politics, where it is mainly conservative Republicans who espouse the non-scientific belief.

    In 2004, a Pennsylvania school district found itself at the center of a national storm after its education board voted to require that a statement on creationism be read to students when they began learning about evolution in science class.

    The school board was ousted the following year.

    "Science, Evolution and Creationism" targets the general public and teachers, and presents in simple terms the current scientific understanding of evolution and the importance of teaching it in the science classroom.

    A day after his win in Iowa, Huckabee toned down his anti-evolution stance, saying in a television interview that the question of whether to teach creationism in schools was "not an issue for our president."

    US President George W. Bush has said he supports teaching "intelligent design" creationism to American students, to present youngsters with differing schools of thought.

    Intelligent design is a theory advocated by conservative Christian groups and some scientists in the United States, which says that complex biological organisms cannot be explained by evolutionary chance alone and must be the work of an intelligent designer — namely God.

    Omenn and the other panel members at the book launch said categorically that creationism should be banned from science classrooms.

    "Scientific inquiry is not about accepting on faith a statement or scriptural passage. It's about exploring nature, so there really is not any place in the science classroom for creationism or intelligent design creationism," said Omenn.

    "We don't teach astrology as an alternative to astronomy, or witchcraft as an alternative to medicine," said Francisco Ayala, a professor of biological sciences at the University of California, Irvine.

    "We must understand the difference between what is and is not science. We must not teach creationism as an alternative to evolution," he said.

    "Holding deep religious beliefs is not incompatible with believing in evolution," Omenn said.

    "But that's different to saying the two can be taught together in science class, because religion and science are two different ways of knowing about the world. They might not be incompatible but they don't overlap each other's spheres.

    "Science class should not contain religious attitudes," he added.

    Copyright © 2008 Agence France Presse.
    Here's a thought: Every time an intelligent design/creationist attempts to get laws enacted in order to infiltrate a science classroom with his or her religious mumbo-jumbo, a scientist should do the exact same thing — except Sunday school classes and worship services should be targeted.

    After all, if it's OK for religious types to force their views into public science classrooms, surely it's OK for scientists to do the same in churches, right? Quid pro quo?

    However, here's a more practical suggestion: Those who must deal with this crap need to emphasize the point that, if ID/creationism takes root in our public schools, we (as in America) can pretty much forget about being a source for scientific breakthroughs in, oh, probably 10 to 20 years' time (that's about how long it'll take an ID/creationism "indoctrinated" generation of students to impart their artificial stupidity onto society at large). That will have a ripple effect into other areas of society as well.

    Also, while this is all going on, do these ID/creationism fools realize that China, India, Europe and other nations will be pushing ahead with actual science education? That their students could very well gain even more of an upper hand on their U.S. counterparts? That translates into great strides in the human condition (i.e. in the sciences and beyond) being made more and more overseas, rather than in the U.S.

    These religious fanatics are endangering the very future of a strong, enlightened America for the sake of ID/creationism. It's a crying shame and enlightened people need to take a real stand against this.

    Gatekeeper
    "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire

    "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius

  • #2
    Your loss is our gain...
    Speaking of Erith:

    "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith

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    • #3
      I'll make sure to tell that to the population demographers in Europe ...
      "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire

      "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius

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      • #4
        I agree that Creationism is asinine and unscientific, but don't you think this is just a liiiiiittle bit alarmist? We're not talking "doom," we're talking about a president who makes our country look completely moronic to the international community, which we've suffered through for over seven years already. It's not like the President could successfully shove such a massive education reform through. The scientific community would be up in arms if s/he (probably he) tried it, there'd be mass resignations.
        1011 1100
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        • #5
          I think that if any belief about the creation of man-kind is taught in school, everyother beleif believed by anyone in the country should be taught. Since that is impossible, we should teach no belief about the creation of mankind. The only reason the Supreme Court ruled that teaching creationism is unconstitutional is because creationism advances a particular religon, but doesn't evolution advance atheism?

          Also, why would all or most of our scientists believing creationism block future scientific breakthoughs other than those regarding evolution? I think it would help us since we won't have so many scientists running all over Africa trying ape fossils when they could be back over here doing something useful.
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          • #6
            Scientists: Creationist President Would Doom U.S.


            Well I think that 'scientists' should bloody well be content to have just one vote like everyone else.

            And preferably concentrate more on science and less on painfully transparent political grandstanding.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Will
              I think that if any belief about the creation of man-kind is taught in school, everyother beleif believed by anyone in the country should be taught.


              Originally posted by Will
              doesn't evolution advance atheism?
              No.

              Originally posted by Will
              scientists believing creationism
              No such thing.
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              AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
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              DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTF

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Elok
                I agree that Creationism is asinine and unscientific, but don't you think this is just a liiiiiittle bit alarmist?
                This certainly isn't a new battle, that's for sure. It's been going on since the Scopes trial way back in, what, the 1920s?

                We're not talking "doom," we're talking about a president who makes our country look completely moronic to the international community, which we've suffered through for over seven years already.
                As you've said, by the time it's all said and done, we'll have had a president for eight years who's, at best, marginal toward scientific thought. The idea of another four or eight years on top of the damage Bush, et al., have done is one that doesn't bade well, IMO.

                Now, to be fair, Huckabee apparently did try to distance himself from his earlier thoughts regarding evolution (which he doesn't believe in) after he won the GOP caucus in Iowa; I believe his new stance is something to the effect that it isn't up to the president to decide what is, or isn't, science.

                It's not like the President could successfully shove such a massive education reform through. The scientific community would be up in arms if s/he (probably he) tried it, there'd be mass resignations.
                It's not just the president, though. Sure, s/he's the most public face and has a good deal of influence, but a lot of the battles that are going on are out of the public sight, and only pop up on the radar when something big happens. For ever president out there who's against evolution, there's "X" number of people in the trenches doing the hard work of actually attempting to implement those anti-science policies at various levels of society.

                Heck, we've already seen the ID/creationist forces go down to the local school board level in an attempt to bring about grassroots change. That's kind of scary, moreso if you have a child or grandchild who's being "educated" in that school district.

                Gatekeeper
                "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire

                "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Will
                  I think that if any belief about the creation of man-kind is taught in school, everyother beleif believed by anyone in the country should be taught. Since that is impossible, we should teach no belief about the creation of mankind. The only reason the Supreme Court ruled that teaching creationism is unconstitutional is because creationism advances a particular religon, but doesn't evolution advance atheism?
                  Hardly. A number of scientists are actually quite faithful, from what I understand, but don't make the mistake of substituting blind adherence to religious dogma for actual research into the knowledge of what life's all about.

                  Also, why would all or most of our scientists believing creationism block future scientific breakthoughs other than those regarding evolution? I think it would help us since we won't have so many scientists running all over Africa trying ape fossils when they could be back over here doing something useful.
                  From what I understand, evolution is a sort of linchpin for understanding a lot of things in the biological world. For instance, if you don't believe that lifeforms change naturally over time, how much of an asset would one be in the search for the cure to, say, the bird flu, which is a clearly changing (i.e. evolving) organism that could very well one day become quite comfy in the human respiratory tract.

                  I'm no scientist, but I do appreciate the scientific process, because it forces me to think about what I believe.

                  Gatekeeper
                  "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire

                  "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius

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                  • #10
                    I agree with the main point, but I think the problem goes deeper than evolution vs. creationism. The problem is how low the standards are in our schools. We cater to the lowest common denominator. Our universities are much better, and more competitive globally, but the problem is that our public (and much of our private) education system prior to that level leaves students woefully unprepared.

                    Let's take the focus away from making students feel good about themselves, take the focus away from emphasizing "flavor of the week" social values (such as diversity, alternative lifestyles, or whatever), and de-emphasize sports (that's especially true in my state) and focus solely on education - you know, science, math, reading, writing, history, etc.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Winston
                      Scientists: Creationist President Would Doom U.S.


                      Well I think that 'scientists' should bloody well be content to have just one vote like everyone else.

                      And preferably concentrate more on science and less on painfully transparent political grandstanding.
                      The scientists have been largely nonpolitcal for years. They're only getting up in arms now because they're beginning to see an impact on their efforts. So, they've decided to do what the religious right-wingers have been doing for years: getting involved in the political process. Without, of course, subverting it in the process.

                      And, of course, nowhere in that artical does it say anything about scientists wanting more than their one vote like everyone else. They're just speaking up loud enough now to piss off their foes.

                      Gatekeeper
                      "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire

                      "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by David Floyd
                        I agree with the main point, but I think the problem goes deeper than evolution vs. creationism. The problem is how low the standards are in our schools. We cater to the lowest common denominator. Our universities are much better, and more competitive globally, but the problem is that our public (and much of our private) education system prior to that level leaves students woefully unprepared.

                        Let's take the focus away from making students feel good about themselves, take the focus away from emphasizing "flavor of the week" social values (such as diversity, alternative lifestyles, or whatever), and de-emphasize sports (that's especially true in my state) and focus solely on education - you know, science, math, reading, writing, history, etc.
                        Good points, David. Especially WRT sports ... but, then again, I was never a jock, so I'm a bit biased about that.

                        Gatekeeper (who's off to work on a Saturday ... sigh ...)
                        "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire

                        "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Will
                          I think that if any belief about the creation of man-kind is taught in school, everyother beleif believed by anyone in the country should be taught. Since that is impossible, we should teach no belief about the creation of mankind. The only reason the Supreme Court ruled that teaching creationism is unconstitutional is because creationism advances a particular religon, but doesn't evolution advance atheism?

                          Also, why would all or most of our scientists believing creationism block future scientific breakthoughs other than those regarding evolution? I think it would help us since we won't have so many scientists running all over Africa trying ape fossils when they could be back over here doing something useful.
                          Miriam gets no research until 2110
                          Zacharov has a 2+ research bonus

                          End of debate



                          Actually not quite, come to think of it.

                          Zakharov/Deirdre 2008

                          Miriam/ Santiago
                          Last edited by Heraclitus; January 5, 2008, 18:01.
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                          The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                          The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LordShiva
                            No such thing.
                            Actually, outside of biology/etc, there is a small minority.

                            JM
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                            GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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                            • #15
                              And I think that those scientists who made this statement are being alarmist fools.

                              JM
                              Jon Miller-
                              I AM.CANADIAN
                              GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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