The Problem with Islam

[CerberusIV]

I would suggest the difference is that, apart from the Vatican city, no predominantly christian country has been ruled as a theocracy where the religious fanatics are in charge of the nuthouse. There has always been some degree of effective secular government to moderate the religious extremists in predominantly christian countries.

Unfortunately secular governments in the ME have generally been ineffective or otherwise undermined over the last 50 years or so. In a situation where strict religious ideas are the only option on offer that is seen to offer resistance to outside (ie. foreign) dominance it should not be a surprise that those religious ideas are taken to extremes. It becomes a competition as to who can be most extreme in order to get noticed and gain support.

[dannubis]

Originally posted by MrFun

I just want to know how Christianity overcame its own militant, violent history to reconcile secular knowledge with religious faith.

The rise of the Nation State ?

[Dry]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
I would suggest the difference is that, apart from the Vatican city, no predominantly christian country has been ruled as a theocracy where the religious fanatics are in charge of the nuthouse.

Spanish inquisition?

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Omni Rex Draconis
Does taint tarnish?

The "taint" is often tarnished. Apparently one can have this region bleached nowadays.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Well, I think that people who are both uneducated and poor are typically the targets for those seeking to recruit soldiers for their crusade.

Actually, it is the complete opposite. Terrorists are usually educated and reasonably affluent westerners.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Blake
The word Islam means submission. It's followers do not embrace true freedom.

What else need to be said?

[Wezil]

CH - Have a cite for the educated westerner claim? I'm sure some have but I suspect the vast majority strapping bombs to themselves aren't well educated...

[aneeshm]

Re: The Problem with Islam

Originally posted by MrFun

So I used to have this unwavering respect for Islam, always loudly claiming that the opressive and terrorist acts carried out by Muslims were those of a minority fundamentalist/extremist sect and not representing the values of moderate Muslims.


But recently, I have begun to rethink my thoughts on Islam, terrorism, and violations of human rights.

Welcome to the exponentially growing club.

Originally posted by MrFun

What happened in the historical experience of Islam? Because today, we still have entire Islamic countries that base their laws on theocracy and rigid interpretation of the Koran whereas we have no examples of Christian nations that do the same (only with the Bible). What led Muslims to reject their own people's great cultural, intellectual, and scientific achievements they had made during the Middle Ages? There was a possibility that Islam could have flowered and grown by reconciling the coexistence of secular knowledge with religion just as it has happened with European Christianity. What happened? What are people's thoughts on this?

What happened?

The idiot relativist Al Ghazzali and his The Incoherence of the Philosophers happened. That was pretty much the end of science and rational thought in Islam (not that it was ever much of a strong point of that cult anyway).

Originally posted by MrFun

And one more thing; why do I not hear enough so-called moderate Muslims loudly denouncing terrorism, and violations of human rights done by fanatical Muslims? I'm talking about moderate Muslims who could do so in relative safety, if they live in Westernized countries.

Could the obvious answer - that they tacitly support it, or think it wrong but still justified enough to keep their mouth shut - be the right one?

[uberloz]

Re: The Problem with Islam

Originally posted by MrFun

What happened in the historical experience of Islam? Because today, we still have entire Islamic countries that base their laws on theocracy and rigid interpretation of the Koran whereas we have no examples of Christian nations that do the same (only with the Bible).

Maybe you answered your own question.

Isn't it possible that because the western world; for the most part anyway; has seperated their religions from their politics and provided freedom to safely practice their beliefs; or lack or denial of beliefs; unfettered by one single oppressive religion that people had more of an opportunity to become enlightened spiritually or otherwise?

Maybe if the Islamic world could institute a form of seperation of their church and their state they could equally flourish?

[Winston]

CerberusIV is right. Islam is a law religion, whereas Christianity is not. Islam by its very premise is supposed to be governing all aspects of human activity. While Christianity has always - to varying degrees - had the 'Give onto God what is His, and onto the Emperor what is his'-maxim, i.e. the separation of authority into clerical and secular spheres. This separation spread and increased in force as time went on, and constitutes one of the important foundations for the enlightened liberal societies we enjoy today.

That is the difference you're looking for. And that is what makes the concept of 'moderate Islam' as a viable, long-term development unattainable in my opinion.

Dominance within a law religion is bound to rest with the non-moderates, unlike other religions which by their non-secular nature will be able to adapt and conform as times change.

[Spec]

Originally posted by Winston
CerberusIV is right. Islam is a law religion, whereas Christianity is not, anymore.

Fixed.

All religions evolve depending on whos in power at the time. Islam will die down some day.

Cant wait for that day. Religion does more bad than good.

Spec.

[Winston]

Spec, you have to be prepared to hear things other than the ones you want to hear. My entire point was that Christianity has never been a law religion in the sense and style of Islam. Every religious scholar will tell you this.

If you actually tune your ears onto them..

[Spec]

If I actually allow them to brainwash me?

Naahh...I am not into bs.

Originally posted by Winston
My entire point was that Christianity has never been a law religion in the sense and style of Islam. Every religious scholar will tell you this.

I hope you dont really beleive this.

Spec.

[Spec]

Spineless from the start, sucked into the part
circus comes to town, you play the lead clown
Please, please
spreading his disease, living by his story
Knees, knees
falling to your knees, suffer for his glory
You will

[Chorus]
Time for lust, time for lie
time to kiss your life goodbye
Send me money, send me green
Heaven you will meet
Make a contribution
and you'll get a better seat
[End Chorus]

Bow to Leper Messiah

Marvel at his tricks, need your Sunday fix
blind devotion came, rotting your brain
Chain, chain
Join the endless chain, taken by his glamour
Fame, Fame
Infection is the game, stinking drunk with power
We see

[Chorus]

Bow to Leper Messiah

Witchery, weakening
Sees the sheeps are gathering
set the trap, hypnotize
now you follow

[Chorus]

Lie.

A good explination of old christiannity.

Spec.

[LordShiva]

Metallica