The Problem with Islam

[Geronimo]

moderate islam is certainly possible. Look how diverse Judaism has become and look at all the christian theocracies that used to exist. Both of those monotheistic religions at one point saw themselves as complete systems to govern all aspects of human life.

[germanos]

Re: The Problem with Islam

Originally posted by MrFun

It's a bit of a rant, mister funn.

So I used to have this unwavering respect for Islam

No wonder you got disappointed. They're only human after all.

For some reason, the historical experience of Christianity in Europe took a different path from that of the historical experience of Islam.

Inexplicable

And yet, by the time of the Enlightenment, European Christians were beginning to relax somewhat in the presence of non-conforming Christians, agnostics, and atheists.

Name me five.

Because today, we still have entire Islamic countries that base their laws on theocracy and rigid interpretation of the Koran

We have, bluntly speaking:
The arabian peninsula
Iran
Afghanistan

In these countries live perhaps 10 % of all muslims. And it's far from certain that the inhabitants are really that keen on the state they live in.
IMO, they cannot be seen as a representative for Islam as a whole.

What led Muslims to reject their own people's great cultural, intellectual, and scientific achievements they had made during the Middle Ages?

I don't know, but many great civilizations fell prey to internal strife that led to stagnations. This is not an islamic trait.

And one more thing; why do I not hear enough so-called moderate Muslims loudly denouncing terrorism, and violations of human rights done by fanatical Muslims?

These 'moderates' as YOU call them, might not feel the need to do so, since they don't feel attached to the loonies in the first place. In fact, they wonder how on earth they get being lobbed in the same crowd.
I've heard many times they feel offended that they have to make clear they denounce these dispicable acts.

I can assure you from personal experience that I've met NO muslim who supports terrorism, and I've met hundreds.

[Kontiki]

The Mongol invasions that set the middle east about 600 years back didn't help much either.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Dry

Spanish inquisition?

Heck, why go for the extremes?

A great deal of Spanish history even before and after the inquisition?

Brutish thuggish, evil place.

[LordShiva]

Nobody expected teh Spanish Inquisition

[BeBMan]

I used to have this unwavering respect for the Spanish Inquisition, always loudly claiming that the opressive and evil acts carried out by them were those of a minority fundamentalist/extremist sect and not representing the values of moderate inquisitioners.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: The Problem with Islam

[QUOTE] Originally posted by germanos

And yet, by the time of the Enlightenment, European Christians were beginning to relax somewhat in the presence of non-conforming Christians, agnostics, and atheists.

Name me five.

I would try, but not knowing 18th cen intellectual history down pat, Im sure Id name some bible denying deists who I only thought were agnostics. Im not sure why that makes a difference though. Mr Fun is right, the increase in tolerance in western europe (and North America) in the 18th century was large and important.

I dont know what bearing that has on the rest of this thread though, im not following it that closely.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by David Floyd

Yes, there are a bunch of ignorant ****s who call themselves Christians - the people who blow up abortion clinics, ban books, restrict science, etc. Fortunately, those people neither run countries nor form the majority in any country. There are plenty of ignorant ****ing Muslims, and unfortunately those people DO run countries filled with other ignorant ****ing Muslims who are more than happy to strap bombs to themselves and blow up non-Muslims (or even Muslims who aren't radical enough or aren't members of their particular sect) for Allah.

I would venture to say that closest we got any form of modern state-level sanctioned violence for Christians was in northern Ireland in the 1990s.

[MrFun]

Re: Re: The Problem with Islam

Originally posted by aneeshm

What happened?

The idiot relativist Al Ghazzali and his The Incoherence of the Philosophers happened. That was pretty much the end of science and rational thought in Islam (not that it was ever much of a strong point of that cult anyway).

** read linked material

That was interesting information. I wondered if the Crusades was synergistic with the internal denunciation by Muslims of their own people's intellectual work? Maybe the Crusades led Muslims to look inward more to the exclusion of significant interaction with Europeans beyond trade while they burned intellectual works within the caliphates?

[MrFun]

Re: Re: The Problem with Islam

Originally posted by germanos

What led Muslims to reject their own people's great cultural, intellectual, and scientific achievements they had made during the Middle Ages?

I don't know, but many great civilizations fell prey to internal strife that led to stagnations. This is not an islamic trait.

Never thought that this was exclusively an Islamic historical trait. European Christian countries for example, had their own period when they slipped into the abyss of renunciation of secular, intellectual knowledge and greater oppressive laws based on Christian dogma.

But for some reason, Christian European countries at different points had long since overcome this, and had come out of the abyss. Why haven't Muslim countries such as Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia been able to?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Spec
I hope you dont really beleive this.

Same here! Otherwise, he really needs to read up on the history of canon law and its integral part in the development of European legal systems.

[Apocalypse]

Re: Re: The Problem with Islam

Originally posted by notyoueither
Where are the loud denunciations of Mugabe by American blacks?

Actually, it turns out that Americans love Mugabe because we are pretty much doing the same thing in freezing ARMs.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Some perspective maaaaay be needed .

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Winston
CerberusIV is right. Islam is a law religion, whereas Christianity is not.

Actually it is, which is why a lot of controversy in the US over US courts having the 10 commandments in the buildings.

[MrFun]

Imran, I'm aware of how centrally important Christianity was in European countries during the Middle Ages through part of the Enlightenment period in regards to law-making and states.