Hey, atheists . . . .

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Wow, I agree with Mr. Fun.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Wow. I have to say this was the biggest surprise in my day.

[Dinner]

The main problem with the OP is that it ignores causality. Religion was the cause of religious conflict while atheism was not the cause of Stalin's purges. Thus blaming atheism for Stalin's actions is absurd.

[Wezil]

The entire thread is absurd. I think theists deep down know it is silly to believe in imaginary beings.

[snoopy369]

I would argue that religion is exactly as much the cause as atheism is - either it acted as an enabler for the propoganda, or it was the root cause in both cases. Although the individual believers may have believed, there is little question that the crusades themselves - and many other religious wars/etc. - had at their true root a geopolitical cause (or simply a religion attempting to reinforce their power, aka Stalin).

[Dinner]

And, yes, I do believe the Pope really believes in Christianity. All deeply religious people believe their religion is right.

[snoopy369]

The question is are all high up people in a religious organization deeply religious

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Please don't use wikipedia in this context. It's worse than useless...

Atheism is the explicit belief that God does not exist.

I believe it came as an offshoot from the Gnostics, a particular heretical group of christianity from the early church. I don't remember the specifics, however, it's been years.

As above... "The explicit belief that there is no God." Atheists positively believe something (that there is no God), while modern Agnostics simply don't give a *@#%.

I cite wikipedia because, were you to visit the relevant article, you would be informed of the fact that there are a variety of different views on what atheism actually is, and that the positive belief that there is no god is only one kind of atheism.

And your idea about where agnosticism comes from is wrong.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by snoopy369
I would argue that religion is exactly as much the cause as atheism is - either it acted as an enabler for the propoganda, or it was the root cause in both cases.

Then you'd be wrong. Stalin was motivated by power and didn't care about religion once it was no longer in a position to challenge his dictatorship. Ergo Atheism was not his dominating or even motivating issue.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Oerdin
And, yes, I do believe the Pope really believes in Christianity. All deeply religious people believe their religion is right.

Maybe this Pope...

I guess I should have clarified - thinking religious people know it's all a farce.

[Dinner]

Never underestimate the power of self delusion.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Lorizael


I'm really ****ing cynical.

I don't think it's a good idea to compare todays politicians, tv evangelistas etc to the rulers of the period of the crusades - even back then they of course had their evil political schemes, but religion was an integrated part of it.

Lots of regents did very stupid things just because priests told them that it was what god wanted.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Then you'd be wrong. Stalin was motivated by power and didn't care about religion once it was no longer in a position to challenge his dictatorship. Ergo Atheism was not his dominating or even motivating issue.

I would agree with your statement there except for the 'wrong' part. However, I do not feel it contradicts my statement

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Lorizael


I cite wikipedia because, were you to visit the relevant article, you would be informed of the fact that there are a variety of different views on what atheism actually is, and that the positive belief that there is no god is only one kind of atheism.

And your idea about where agnosticism comes from is wrong.

Wiki is not a sufficient source on matters such as this, because it is often wrong. Atheism is the belief there is no god. Other things are branches of agnostic or other thought.

"Offshoot" in this case of course means "rejection", which is the origin of the term ... Agnostic = A + gnostic. It initially meant the belief that the existence of God - and other spiritual questions - was impossible to know. Although it retains that meaning, and has many forms, in the modern usage of the term it is generally used to describe people who are, as your favorite reference terms it, "apathetic agnostics". Agnosticism as a belief system (as Huxley et al postulated it) is certainly a belief system, but not modern day "apathetic agnostics" (which is still imprecise, but the meaning is carried).

[MrFun]

Originally posted by snoopy369
I would argue that religion is exactly as much the cause as atheism is - either it acted as an enabler for the propoganda, or it was the root cause in both cases. Although the individual believers may have believed, there is little question that the crusades themselves - and many other religious wars/etc. - had at their true root a geopolitical cause (or simply a religion attempting to reinforce their power, aka Stalin).

I agree with this; Oerdin pointed out that Stalin's motivation to kill all Orthodox and Catholic clergy was not based purely on atheism, but because of his desire to eliminate opposing power to his own desire for power.

But, when it comes down to it, Stalin's atheism permitted him to carry out this bloody purge without any qualms even if his motivation was not purely for the sake of atheism itself.

[Asher]

Re: Hey, atheists . . . .

Originally posted by MrFun
Often, on this forum, whenever there is discussion of religion in general, some resident atheists here like to rehash exclusively on historical and present accounts of how people of different religions have oppressed others, focusing only on the ugly side of religion.

Well I guess some of you have forgotten the crimes against humanity that were committed for the sake of atheistic means/goals. Stalin's bloody purge of Orthodox and Catholic clergy for example. And how about Mao's Cultural Revolution, when he and his goons systematically destroyed monasteries and churches?

Religious people, communists; the point is you guys believe in fiction and kill people for it.

That's all there is to it.