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  • #166
    Originally posted by DanS
    Speaking from long personal experience, I disagree vehemently on the utility of heavy rail for carless people. Basically, you are my enemy -- you are doing what you can to stop me from getting around town in a pleasant, timely, and cost-effective manner.

    Have you ever looked at population density maps of DC? Basically, wherever people are, metrorail isn't. It was a system built without regard to the city's needs. The city is fortunate that it is now making some use of metrorail despite the original plan.
    Dan, Ive lived in NYC, and I KNOW poor people use heavy rail extensively there. Its even likely they would use it on the Georgia avenue corridor, and if somebody can make that work, Id be delighted.

    But the USA doesnt consist only of NYC and DC. It includes Jacksonville, FL, and Columbus,Ohio and Bangor, Maine.

    Even greater Washington, not all the poor people are in places like Georgia Avenue. Lots of poor folks scattered across the old, and not so old suburbs. And even the folks who live on Georgia avenue, if they are going E-W across town are likely to need to use the bus.

    Im not your enemy. Geez. Im a pro-transit person, in general. (Oh, and my current position gives me no authority over any of this, I'll email you about that). I was a member of the subway club at Stuyvesant HS. I ride metrorail every weekday. Im NOT willing to toss about all Ive learned about the economics of transit, though.
    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

    Comment

    • #167
      Originally posted by DanS
      Have you ever looked at population density maps of DC? Basically, wherever people are, metrorail isn't. It was a system built without regard to the city's needs. The city is fortunate that it is now making some use of metrorail despite the original plan.
      Im certainly not going to defend the original Washington metro plan. I was in elementary school when it was formulated, and I doubt many people currently at FTA were involved in it.
      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

      Comment

      • #168
        See your mail.
        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

        Comment

        • #169
          The US consists mainly of places not like DC and NYC. That's a fact. Indeed, DC works differently than most of DC's suburbs. DC has the needs and attributes of an urban city. Even most of the urban suburbs do not.

          Perhaps an analogy is warranted here. The Lerners develop office buildings in DC from time to time, but mostly their projects are suburban. When the Lerners bought the Nationals, they thought it a good idea that car garages be built above-ground near the stadium. Everyone in the city was horrified at the thought. But the Lerners said that below-ground parking near the stadium was extremely expensive.

          Who was right? I submit that both were, taken from different points of view. If you took a look at parking as an individual item in the suburbs, it would be daft to have below-ground parking. But if you look at it from a city-wide urban standpoint, above-ground parking doesn't make any sense at all.

          In like fashion, I don't take a suburban view of subways when they cross into urban areas. Subways that serve the people who live there are a necessary component of a healthy, large urban city. There's really no possible tradeoff in my mind. Subways support the densities and real estate values of the city in a way that buses can't. You can't look at the subway from a the narrow view of congestion alleviation. If the subway's not there, then I leave the city rather than get a car or ride a bus in the city.
          Last edited by DanS; December 4, 2007, 16:43.
          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

          Comment

          • #170
            It should be noted that congestion is only one of the costs of auto traffic. According to the NHTSA, the US incurs an economic cost of about $230 billion (2000 estimate) each year due to traffic accidents, or about 7.6 cents per mile traveled.

            Please note that this is about equal to the cost of fuel.
            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

            Comment

            • #171
              Does that include loss of life?

              Comment

              • #172
                Yes. Here's the 2006 file.

                Access Denied
                http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/nhtsa_static_file_downloader.jsp?file=/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/NCSA/Content/TSF/TSF2006EE.pdf


                Maybe we should have a fuller discussion on this in your DARPA Grand Challenge thread.
                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                Comment

                • #173
                  heres a delightful video of a trip on the 3rd avenue el, the last of the old Manhattan els, made during the early '50s, set to a Haydn concerto.


                  3rd Ave. El - 1955
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEG4re43ub8&feature=related
                  What is a 3rd Ave. El? It's the elevated train that used to run up and down Manhattan until the mid-1950's, when it was decommissioned and turned into scrap...
                  "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                  Comment

                  • #174
                    This could get good. It appears that at the last minute, the DOT won't approve the Dulles extension to go forward under any circumstances, reversing an understanding among all stakeholders that the project would go forward.

                    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/24/AR2008012401221.html?hpid=topnews


                    I wonder how long it will take to run the Transportation Secretary out of town.
                    Last edited by DanS; January 24, 2008, 15:52.
                    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                    Comment

                    • #175
                      Originally posted by Cort Haus
                      Sometimes, but not in the general case. Tell that to IK Brunel and he'd throw you off a viaduct.
                      WRONG!
                      APOSTOLNIK BEANIE BERET BICORNE BIRETTA BOATER BONNET BOWLER CAP CAPOTAIN CHADOR COIF CORONET CROWN DO-RAG FEDORA FEZ GALERO HAIRNET HAT HEADSCARF HELMET HENNIN HIJAB HOOD KABUTO KERCHIEF KOLPIK KUFI MITRE MORTARBOARD PERUKE PICKELHAUBE SKULLCAP SOMBRERO SHTREIMEL STAHLHELM STETSON TIARA TOQUE TOUPEE TRICORN TRILBY TURBAN VISOR WIG YARMULKE ZUCCHETTO

                      Comment

                      • #176
                        Originally posted by DanS
                        I wonder how long it will take to run the Transportation Secretary out of town.
                        January 2009

                        Comment

                        • #177
                          Don't know that he'll last that long, what with the Republican Virginia delegation apparently being misled for years by the DOT. Remember, this is Virginia. Lots of Republicans.

                          Here's WaPo's editorial on the subject, with which I heartily agree. $140 million in federal funds already spent under the assumption that the line would be approved by the DOT. Now, all of the sudden, DOT's got all sorts of objections.

                          I bet that DOT wants to spend more money on buses that nobody chooses to ride.

                          http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/24/AR2008012402843_pf.html
                          Last edited by DanS; January 25, 2008, 00:52.
                          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                          Comment

                          • #178
                            Well, the good news in all of this is that the major argument for the above-ground metro seemed to be the necessity for Federal funding. Maybe now that cost is a serious issue, they can start accepting contracting bids.
                            "Remember, there's good stuff in American culture, too. It's just that by "good stuff" we mean "attacking the French," and Germany's been doing that for ages now, so, well, where does that leave us?" - Elok

                            Comment

                            • #179
                              There are so many moving parts here. It will take a decade at least to spool this project back up. It's not that concerns about the contract were unwarranted, but the project never was and never will be perfect.
                              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                              Comment

                              • #180
                                "The Dulles Rail Death Knell"

                                Sort of breathless sensationalism, but here you go...

                                http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/26/AR2008012602083.html?hpid=topnews
                                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                                Comment

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