Subways -- underground or above-ground

[DanS]

Tis true. Buses suck rocks. I'm not buying LOTM's salespitch.

Try taking the bus out to Dulles. It's a real pain in the ass even in no traffic. Because it's such a pain in the ass, nobody rides it. Because nobody rides it, it only operates once every 40 minutes or 1 hour.

By the way, I just love how once the Dulles extension went through, Maryland started talking about extending the green line to BWI airport.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by GePap


I think Z is talking about the experience4s of the Great Blizzard of 1888 ...

You're reading my mind (and underlining all the dirty parts).

[DanS]

Originally posted by Kontiki
Las Vegas doesn't have anywhere near the density needed to support a subway system, and the people that come to visit the casinos aren't likely to use public transit unless it's some sort of novelty item like a monorail.

I think it has the density. However, it's expensive to dig through the rock in the area where it would be warranted (the Strip).

That's why you have monorail a mile from the strip (well not quite that).

[DanS]

Originally posted by Kontiki
Montreal runs a distant second to Toronto in terms of subway ridership in Canada, despite the systems being of almost identical size. Both are less than 1/4 the length of DC's.

Well, more like 40% the length.

Montreal has 1.6 million in the metro area and the subway serves about 800k trips a day, meaning that about one-fourth of people in the Montreal metro area take the subway on any given day. That's a really high figure.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by DanS
That's why you have monorail a mile from the strip (well not quite that).

Las Vegas built the world's most expensive-per-mile monorail a mile away from the hotels it's supposed to be serving?!?


IDIOTS!!!!

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by DanS


Well, more like 40% the length.

Montreal has 1.6 million in the metro area and the subway serves about 800k trips a day, meaning that about one-fourth of people in the Montreal metro area take the subway on any given day. That's a really high figure.

Doh! My bad on the size, I was mixing up miles and kilometers.

Montreal has closer to 4 million in the metro area, though. The city proper has 1.6 million, the island about 1.8 million. The Montreal Metro is almost exclusively on the island, except for one stop on Ile Ste-Helene (a purely recreational island, 0 population) and one stop in Longeuil, across the river.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by DanS


I think it has the density.

How do you figure? There's dense development in terms of hotels on the Stip, sure. But the residential density in the city is pretty low. I really don't think tourists along the strip would make a subway viable, even if it was easier to dig in the area.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I liked metro way better than bus. But than, maybe the buses in LOTM's part of town are nicer and closer to on time. Although I generally spent longer waiting for the bus than I did riding the bus, and if I had had a bike would have went the same distance in the same amount of time.

JM

I think people are reading me wrong. Theres about a gazillion considerations that go into making the determination of optimal mode for a corridor. Some of which are availability of existing grade seperated HOV lanes for buses, costs of creating new lanes, costs of creating new rail lines, density, where the destinations are, etc. Im not against all new rail lines, and Im NOT against the Dulles line. Im just open to looking at the actual costs and benefits of each proposal in each specific corridor.

And Im realistic enough to know that rail is NEVER a complete substitute for a bus system. I presume DanS has been to Manhattan, which must have more subway stations per square mile than any place in the USA has, or is ever likely to have. Guess what there are plenty of local buses, there, heavily patronized.

Re Dulles BRT = DanS is cheating by comparing the CURRENT bus service with a potential rail service. No one, AFAIK, is proposing serving the Dulles corridor with the current bus service only. The BRT solution which was considered in the MIS study was, IIRC, a full grade seperated bus only system, with high platform bus stations precisely where the rail stations would located in Herndon and Reston, and frequent service. The main drawback vs rail, was the inability to handle projected future volumes as the corridor develops further. The main advantage was lower costs and shorter construction time. Virginia decided to bet on the higher future volumes. A reasonable bet, although right now with NO transit solution in the corridor, and the rail solution continuing to recede to the horizon, one has to admit the BRT solution is looking better in retrospect.


BTW, the priniple ridership for the proposed rail line, Im quite sure, is commuters to Tysons and DC, NOT riders to the airport. Thats generally the case with almost every airport metro line.

As for Georgia Avenue, I dont know. Heavy rail lines underground in big cities are HUGELY expensive. You need a helluva lot of riders to make sense. The existing green line through north DC makes sense cause it captures local riders, and ALSO provides the mainline to Takoma/College Park. I dont know that theres another corridor in PG that makes sense, and I doubt ANOTHER heavy rail line through north DC between the Green line and the east side Red line would pass any kind of cost-benefit or cost-effectiveness. Maybe an in-street light rail line to try to revive retail on the corridor, but I suspect DC will try to see how the H Street (?) experiment works out before expanding it.

[DanS]

Have you been to Las Vegas lately? Huge density on the Strip (City Center and other residential skyscrapers to revitalize the area on the Strip between the old part of the Strip and the new).

The traffic on I15 and I215 well and truly sucks. They're going to build a new airport on I15 as well, which means that traffic will well and truly suck for dozens of miles.

Las Vegas could get by with building a subway with two or three lines. Basically, I15, I215 and another line taking in some of the other parts of town.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by DanS
Tis true. Buses suck rocks. I'm not buying LOTM's salespitch.

Try taking the bus out to Dulles. It's a real pain in the ass even in no traffic. Because it's such a pain in the ass, nobody rides it. Because nobody rides it, it only operates once every 40 minutes or 1 hour.

By the way, I just love how once the Dulles extension went through, Maryland started talking about extending the green line to BWI airport.

The BWI bus is much better than the Dulles bus though.

JM

[DanS]

No, it isn't.

The BWI bus runs only every 1:20, so that you have to build in extra time so that you are assured of not missing it.

The Dulles bus runs every 40 minutes (weekday) or hour (weekends).

[Dinner]

http://www.backingblair.co.uk/london_underground/

[Jon Miller]

MAybe it is just that I Can get to the BWI airport by car from College Park in 40 minutes.

JM

[Jon Miller]

BTW, an outer line would ease a lot of the congestion that the downtown area feels. There are a lot of people who come in on one outer line, switch trains in the middle, and go out on another outerline... the answer isn't to have express trains, but rather to have an outerline (purple line).

JM

[DanS]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
As for Georgia Avenue, I dont know. Heavy rail lines underground in big cities are HUGELY expensive. You need a helluva lot of riders to make sense. The existing green line through north DC makes sense cause it captures local riders, and ALSO provides the mainline to Takoma/College Park. I dont know that theres another corridor in PG that makes sense, and I doubt ANOTHER heavy rail line through north DC between the Green line and the east side Red line would pass any kind of cost-benefit or cost-effectiveness. Maybe an in-street light rail line to try to revive retail on the corridor, but I suspect DC will try to see how the H Street (?) experiment works out before expanding it.

DC needs something along 16th Street/Georgia Avenue. Maryland needs something along Colesville Road. Cross the red line at Silver Spring station.

DC needs something serving Georgetown and Wisconsin Avenue. Virginia will need to decouple either the blue line or the Dulles line from the orange line because the tunnel's getting crowded.

There are other possibilities like this. Doesn't take too much imagination to come up with options that make some sense.