Subways -- underground or above-ground

[Kuciwalker]

DC is definitely more upscale than NY. Partly cause of the original construction, it has fewer total stations, more widely seperated, a much larger portion of park n ride passengers versus walk to stations, more suburban stations and fewer stations in DC (large parts of which rely on buses to get downtown - for example the Georgia Avenue corridor) and higher fares. Its hardly all rich (I doubt youd find ANY high falutin lawyer-lobbyists on a typical day)

Ummmmm, counterexample.

[DanS]

Which is a real shame, because DC has two freeways that should be underground.

It should be noted that the metrorail was the preferred alternative to a Big Dig type of proposal.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
and carry what relative proportion of riders?

...Wouldn't that be more of a function of the number of trains, the number of cars/train, the number of seats/car?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


...Wouldn't that be more of a function of the number of trains, the number of cars/train, the number of seats/car?

all of which are limited by the technology, IIUC.

[MRT144]

if anyone wants an example of how to botch mass transit and freeways look to seattle.

most public transportation is mainly buses. the problem with our bus situation is partially topography, partially the
density problem and partially...

there are 4 major freeways that havent been expanded in years. most outlying areas serviced by bus use the same packed freeways that they are trying to alleviate. The two freeway bridges from the east side suburbs to the job center of seattle proper is a total of 10 lanes. (520 is 2 each way, 90 is 3 each way plus 2 express lanes that switch at mid day). nothing ever really gets built here though...

because of the way the Regional Transit Improvement District and local government is set up. Every time a transit proposal is put up on the ballot the project is voted on by everyone in king county, but the scope of most projects are just localized spots. the fact individuals are responsible for allowing construction to happen or not, and the fact that there can be several recalls (in the case of the monorail) to shut them down means nothing really ever gets done here.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MRT144
if anyone wants an example of how to botch mass transit and freeways look to seattle.

most public transportation is mainly buses. the problem with our bus situation is partially topography, partially the
density problem and partially...

there are 4 major freeways that havent been expanded in years. most outlying areas serviced by bus use the same packed freeways that they are trying to alleviate. The two freeway bridges from the east side suburbs to the job center of seattle proper is a total of 10 lanes. (520 is 2 each way, 90 is 3 each way plus 2 express lanes that switch at mid day). nothing ever really gets built here though...

because of the way the Regional Transit Improvement District and local government is set up. Every time a transit proposal is put up on the ballot the project is voted on by everyone in king county, but the scope of most projects are just localized spots. the fact individuals are responsible for allowing construction to happen or not, and the fact that there can be several recalls (in the case of the monorail) to shut them down means nothing really ever gets done here.

Well thats the problem. Buses dont have to be on the same packed freeways. they can also be in HOV lanes, which can also be used by carpoolers. The next level up of BRT, you can have dedicated busways, with busstations, etc, that can improve performance markedly. I think Ottawa has something like that.

Of course buses serve lots of markets beside line haul to the CBD. they feed rail lines at transfers, and they provide service to peripheral employment centers that dont have the density to support rail.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Wezil
A quick search shows Montreal and Glasgow as two cities with entirely underground subways.

As I understand, Montreal's system is extremely heavily used, such that it serves more trips than Washington's metrorail, even though Montreal is a much smaller city. Not having been inside the city, I can't confirm.

[Admiral]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


It was a hugely costly thing (even without the overruns) that was only done cause of politics, and the way its turned out has probably killed all such projects for the next 20 years.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I really haven't paid much attention to this issue since the summer), but isn't the company that was assigned the Tysons project (in a no-bid contract, by the way) the same one that was running Boston's Big Dig?

[DanS]

Indeed. But it's not as if there are tons of companies able to pull together a project of this magnitude.

The no-bid contract is one of the few things about the project that doesn't settle well with me.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by DanS


As I understand, Montreal's system is extremely heavily used, such that it serves more trips than Washington's metrorail, even though Montreal is a much smaller city. Not having been inside the city, I can't confirm.

From what I saw in my brief search the reason was a combination of technology and weather. The wheels they used would not hold up well in the bitter Montreal winter.

[MRT144]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Well thats the problem. Buses dont have to be on the same packed freeways. they can also be in HOV lanes, which can also be used by carpoolers. The next level up of BRT, you can have dedicated busways, with busstations, etc, that can improve performance markedly. I think Ottawa has something like that.

Of course buses serve lots of markets beside line haul to the CBD. they feed rail lines at transfers, and they provide service to peripheral employment centers that dont have the density to support rail.

the problem is actually approving new lanes here. people wouldnt vote for more lanes if they were HOV only either. they would say "hey, why should I pay for lanes I wont even use?"

the biggest impediment to development here is selfishness and the democratic process allowing it to sabotage any possible progress.

one of the other big problems is the way everything in Seattle/King County is funded; property taxes, and sales taxes to repay bonds. there are no tolls here. there is no income tax. so when something needs to be built we approve .02% sales tax increases, or charge people more for car tabs, etc etc.

[Wezil]

Toronto is trying HOV lanes with mixed results. Negativity by non-HOV users is common. The HOV must merge back into the regular lanes at sonme points. Bottlenecks are occuring as people won't let them back in.

[FrostyBoy]

Singapore has both underground and above, but all new railways will be underground from now on, that is due to aesthetic and space reasons.

While it is more costly, it is very important to remind yourself of the benefits of underground over above when you consider the fact that railways like this are a once in a century kind of thing and dictate much on city planning in the future.

In Singapore we also have LRT's (light rail ways), that are small automatic buses, running on elevated railways. It works excellent for suburban areas, these LRT's connect to the main rail system.

Just remembering Sydney's rail system makes me not want to go back to that city, it makes the city look old, crusty and depressing.

I vote underground 100%.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by DanS


As I understand, Montreal's system is extremely heavily used, such that it serves more trips than Washington's metrorail, even though Montreal is a much smaller city. Not having been inside the city, I can't confirm.

Montreal runs a distant second to Toronto in terms of subway ridership in Canada, despite the systems being of almost identical size. Both are less than 1/4 the length of DC's.

[Dis]

underground. We need one badly. I think it would really help cut global warming.

The problem with our above ground mono rail is the casinos did not want it in front of their properties, as it would obstruct the wonderful view of the garbage the casinos thinks look good. So our monorail is 1 mile away from the strip. Not surprisingly it's doing terrible and eventually I believe the public will have to flip the bill for continued operation.

Because people don't want the above ground ugliness, underground is the only way to go.

I just wish people in my city would realize widening freeways will only work so long and as our city's population skyrockets we will need public transportation.