The New "N" Word

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by DirtyMartini
I am willing to grant that saying the word "noose" is not racist.

With respect to the OP, I am willing to grant that asking if someone knows how to tie a noose is not necessarily racist. Also, school administrators tend to overreact, so the kids may well have gotten a raw deal.

I am willing to grant that the aftermath of the Jena incident has been overblown, six kids did beat up another kid, they shouldn't just get to walk. However, the beginning of that saga, the hanging of a noose in a tree on the grounds of the Jena school, was a racist act. Since that story revolves around a noose and that story has been on 24-7 rotation on the news, nooses have become, in the current US culture, a symbol that stands for lynching. Therefore, any mention or depiction of a noose must be understood, in the current climate, as potentially inflammatory. While that may be beyond the intellectual grasp of the high school students involved, it is pretty obvious to any remotely politically aware adult.

The point of my previous story is that either I was unaware of the potential symbolism of the noose at that time, or, hopefully, that the symbolism was not as strong/not present at that time.

Symbols have meanings. I definitely agree that banning their expression is stupid and probably counter-productive, it's silly to think "Oh, it's just a piece of rope/piece of wood set alight/geometric shape on a red background/etc., what's teh big deal?" If someone uses a symbol with a racist history with racist intent, s/he deserves to be called out on it.

[Patroklos]

Since that story revolves around a noose and that story has been on 24-7 rotation on the news, nooses have become, in the current US culture, a symbol that stands for lynching. Therefore, any mention or depiction of a noose must be understood, in the current climate, as potentially inflammatory.

I still disagree with you on this.

If I go beat a black dude to death with a wrench today in a hate crime, and the media shows it are wrenches now racist. What if I did it with my Xbox? Or my Websters Dictionary?

Just becasuse an object was used for something stupid doesn't mean it is forever tainted when used for something unrealated.

Its not like black people have some special claim on the noose anyways. More blacks were killed by handgun in hate crimes back in the day, are guns a racist symbol against blacks? How about camp fires? I have white sheets on my bed, am I a racist?

In other words, what stupid hypersensative people think has no bearing on reality, especially when it is just a fad.

[Nugog]

Originally posted by LordShiva


Symbols have meanings.

Only if you want them too.

*EDIT - And only if you want to believe that the most recent usage of that symbol/icon wipes out/replaces all previous use of it.

If someone uses a symbol with a racist history with racist intent, s/he deserves to be called out on it.

And there's the rub. Racist intent to one person is very different from another's. Also depends on your cultural point of view.

For example - calling someone a bastard in some countries can actually be a compliment.

Also how is it possible for a political party to openly represent the interests of one ethnic group and not be racist?

[BeBMan]

I would say it's clear that things/words can be used in with racist intentions. I wouldn't agree that once used that way, they are always nothing else than a racist expression. Even if some become symbols for such a use, it doesn't mean any use has a racist background. Otoh it's imo perfectly legitimate to ask if the guys using it were aware of a certain symbolism, and used it intentionally to make a certain point. That'swhy we should ideally know more about the individual circumstances of such cases (if we want to judge it), which we don't for the one in the OP.

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by Patroklos


I still disagree with you on this.

I think we actually agree that it's probably blown out of proportion and quite arbitrary.

Unfortunately, that doesn't make the symbolism less real...

Try walking up to a black stranger and saying "Want to see my noose?"

Then, after getting out of the hospital and/or court try "Want to see my wrench?"

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Patroklos


I still disagree with you on this.

If I go beat a black dude to death with a wrench today in a hate crime, and the media shows it are wrenches now racist. What if I did it with my Xbox? Or my Websters Dictionary?

Just becasuse an object was used for something stupid doesn't mean it is forever tainted when used for something unrealated.

Its not like black people have some special claim on the noose anyways. More blacks were killed by handgun in hate crimes back in the day, are guns a racist symbol against blacks? How about camp fires? I have white sheets on my bed, am I a racist?

In other words, what stupid hypersensative people think has no bearing on reality, especially when it is just a fad.

Teh reality is unimportant here. Perception is what matters.

Many more Jews were probably killed by plague over teh centuries than by teh Nazis. Yet, in Jewish cultural consciousness, teh Nazi Swastika is equated with an abhorrent ideology.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Nugog


Only if you want them too.

It has nothing to do with what I want. I wish that teh swastika could revert to its original meaning as a symbol of peace, but that's not going to happen as long as one still fears teh injustices for which it once stood.

Similarly, if race relations in teh US continue to improve as they have, teh noose will cease to be a symbol of racial hatred. It's no coincidence that it's only been a big deal in highly racially polarised environments (Jena and teh high school in teh OP).

[Patroklos]

Try walking up to a black stranger and saying "Want to see my noose?"

Then, after getting out of the hospital and/or court try "Want to see my wrench?"

In that case my intent is obvious and it has nothing to do with the noose itself, but rather me alluding to specific event.

And it is interesting how people automatically assume the white person would lose in such confrontations. Very racist

Teh reality is unimportant here. Perception is what matters.

I don't care about someones elses perception is, I care about mine. If the perception of nooses is so different between individuals and groups that one has zero inhabitions about bringing it up in normal conversation it just shows how not an issue it is.

The Swastika, otoh, is percieved by everyone as offensive. So it is.

Similarly, if race relations in teh US continue to improve as they have, teh noose will cease to be a symbol of racial hatred. It's no coincidence that it's only been a big deal in highly racially polarised environments (Jena and teh high school in teh OP).

What that shows is that the noose only has relevance under a specific set of circumstances that exist precisely nowhere except where people willfully combined them.

The rest of the 99.999% of our populations an locals may continue as normal.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Patroklos
The Swastika, otoh, is percieved by everyone as offensive. So it is.

Who is everyone?

If I were to draw a Swastika for a Hindu ritual, nobody would be offended. If I were to draw it on teh walls of a synagogue, people would be.

If I were to talk about nooses (neese?) is, say, a discussion about ways in which people commit suicide, I wouldn't offend. If I were to hang one up on a tree used for shade by African-Americans, or if I were to ask a friend who, along with me was involved in a racially tense situation with an African American in earshot, "Hey, do you know how to tie a noose, snicker snicker," my intent, and the offense, is clear.

[Patroklos]

If I were to talk about nooses (neese?) is, say, a discussion about ways in which people commit suicide, I wouldn't offend. If I were to hang one up on a tree used for shade by African-Americans, or if I were to ask a friend who, along with me was involved in a racially tense situation with an African American in earshot, "Hey, do you know how to tie a noose, snicker snicker," my intent, and the offense, is clear.

Thats all well and good, but as the OP proves the "noose" is considered by taboo by some idiots no matter how it is used.

And the Hinu/swastika thing were it is not considered offensive those some thint it always has to be just proves my point.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Thats all well and good, but as the OP proves the "noose" is considered by taboo by some idiots no matter how it is used.

I think everyone here agrees that that's stupid. Whether this is teh case in teh OP, or whether it's something like teh possibility MikeH suggested, is unclear.

Originally posted by Patroklos
And the Hinu/swastika thing were it is not considered offensive those some thint it always has to be just proves my point.

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by LordShiva


I think everyone here agrees that that's stupid.

[b etor]

noose noose noooooooooose.

[Riesstiu IV]

Nooses are taking over America and driving hard working Americans into hiding. It's time we take back our nation from the noose threat and punish any noose lovers. Long have we suffered nooses in our school, neighborhoods, and places of worship but this will all change soon.

[GePap]

I think the school overreacted by giving a ten day suspension, but as others have already said, words change meaning and symbolism with time. Maybe some people on this board don't care, ut get over yourselves, cause the rest of the world could care less.