Unfairness of Not Being American

[Krill]

Originally posted by Seeker
Actually, like I said I think it's more of an unconscious feedback loop.

What we are dealing with is the the odds and ends of dozens of tiny 'conspiracies', ideologies, policies, drives, that has solidified into a disgusting, self-perpetuating, self-brainwashing mass.

They say that, just as with truth, there are three stages of brainwashing 1) The target resists fiercely. 2) The targets denies that he was brainwashed or that brainwashing ever occurred 3) The target works vigorously to brainwash himself and others, often long after the original purpose of his programming has become obsolete or nonsensical.

It's a feedback loop, like 'Moloch' from Fritz Lang's Metropolis. No one controls it, it has no real plan or agenda, there is no 'secret council' meeting in a back room, there is just a mishmash of programmed habits and beliefs that wash around endlessly: The wealthy arise from the herd -> the wealthy create the culture -> The culture controls the herd-> The herd produces new elites with a cultural pastiche of beliefs and drives influenced by the culture created by the old elites....rinse and repeat...it's like a nightmarish spin-cycle of culture, politics, and media. But at least it isn't too bad, for most people at least...but 'Moloch' has a lot of scary potential danger to human freedom and dignity because it is ultimately mindless and irrational, not merely the product of rational class interest.

Call it Moloch, the System, the Machine, or what have you, I think it is real and we exist in it to our detriment.

So form your own group and start brainwashing them with your prefered cultures. Stop being ap ussy and assert yourself.

[Seeker]

EDIT: to Lorizael
Yeah, but the ideologies of the monied classes are themselves a product of the system.

The rich do not believe what they believe and do what they out of nowhere, in a vacuum, and I believe they are not acting in rational class-based interest.

It's a closed loop, there is no clear input/output. Unless you believe in 'historical forces' or something.

EDIT: To rest: The solution, obviously, is to appoint a benevolent 'caretaker' to direct your military. I nominate myself in all humility.

[Krill]

Re: Re: Unfairness of Not Being American

Originally posted by uberloz


So surrender to the U.S.

We are going to annex you soon anyway!

We may even allow your country to become our 51st state!

Then you can participate in our political process.

no fair, I thought we were your 51st state? (actually by population Wales would be 1 state, Scotland another, Greater London a third and 3 other states (The North/The South and/Midlands?)

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Seeker
EDIT: to Lorizael
Yeah, but the ideologies of the monied classes are themselves a product of the system.

The rich do not believe what they believe and do what they out of nowhere, in a vacuum, and I believe they are not acting in rational class-based interest.

It's a closed loop, there is no clear input/output. Unless you believe in 'historical forces' or something.

EDIT: To rest: The solution, obviously, is to appoint a benevolent 'caretaker' to direct your military. I nominate myself in all humility.

Er, yeah. Of course people aren't acting in a vacuum. And yeah, people aren't acting towards some sort of class-based interest. People just try to do what they believe is best for whatever they value. For most, this means the welfare of their person and family, and this means the acquisition of wealth.

Of course, what people value, and how they believe they should get what they value, is dependent on the culture people are raised in and all that other crap you talked about. But it still comes down to basic human self-interest.

[Seeker]

"But it still comes down to basic human self-interest."

If that were true then it would be reflected in the government chosen by the people. I believe that, in significant ways, it isn't. Why?

Because people's 'values' (ideology) are greatly determined by forces outside their control, that often what the great mass of people believe is in their self-interest and 'for their own good' is frequently, repeatedly not the case. I really don't think that it is as simple as you think.

What policy or belief really is in someone's 'basic self-interest'? Those ideas are precisely the kind of ideas that are at issue, that are moulded by what I call 'Moloch' (largely).

[Krill]

No, because at anything above a very basic republic it is never possible to make every politician stop beeing greedy and corrupt.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Seeker
...what the great mass of people believe is in their self-interest and 'for their own good' is frequently, repeatedly not the case.

I don't believe this isn't true. People are attempting to act in their own self-interest, but they get it wrong a lot. People with a lot of money, which equates to power in capitalism, may believe that acquiring more and more money is always in their self-interest, when this clearly isn't the case.

The desire for more wealth leads to greed and the will to influence the government, media, etc. in order to fulfill this perceived self-interest.

This is only part of the equation, but I believe it's a really big part.

[Seeker]

Face it, we're all slaves of a hive-mind gone mad.

[Krill]

You only just figured that out?

[Seeker]

Sorry!
Before I was diagnosed 'gifted' I was diagnosed as having a 'Learning Disability'...so yeah I'm a slow learner. I come around eventually though. I'm, like, a mix of smart and stupid. Whatever that is. Confused? Mild schizophrenia?

[Krill]

That's normal. Quite alot of gifted people get put in the "dumb" box because they're too lazy to work at stuff they already understand.

[Krill]

Though I think "lacks common sense" applies to alot of those people (myself, especially, included)

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Seeker
Face it, we're all slaves of a hive-mind gone mad.

Of course we are. But it's not a completely directionless hivemind. Everything has a source. That's all.

[PLATO]

Unfairness? That is an interesting concept. Power tends to come and go in this world and there generally seems to be one country that comes out on top for a while. From ancient Egypt to The British Empire, history is full of examples of superpower countries affecting the destinies of those around them. It is simply the US's time. Soon another country will rise to take the mantle (Most likely China imho). Will it then be "unfair" to not be Chinese?

I think that power has little to do with fairness. Where you were born has more to do with luck than anything, I guess. From a power standpoint, those not in the US are currently unlucky...once another country rises to power, then the USians will be unlucky too.

But fairness? I really don't see how that applies.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Seeker

Call it Moloch, the System, the Machine, or what have you, I think it is real and we exist in it to our detriment.

Not always true. When you really desagree, you can say it. They are generally extremely unhappy and try to bother you on all subjects they can find, but finally they have to recognize that you have any right to express your opinion, and even, in some rare cases, they recognize that you were right.