A Question About Highschools in the USA

[Deity Dude]

Originally posted by Barnabas


Only 22% graduate?

If you are interested here are the graduation rates for the 50 largest school districts in the US.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-06-20-dropout-rates_x.htm#grad

[Arrian]

My only question about vouchers is how that would really change those numbers?

Answer: it won't. Vouchers might help some students, by getting them out of those schools. Ok. The rest? Still screwed.

I'm not ideologically opposed to vouchers. But I don't seem them as a solution.

-Arrian

[Deity Dude]

Originally posted by Arrian
My only question about vouchers is how that would really change those numbers?

Answer: it won't. Vouchers might help some students, by getting them out of those schools. Ok. The rest? Still screwed.

I'm not ideologically opposed to vouchers. But I don't seem them as a solution.

-Arrian

You really don't believe that if you gave all Detroit parents who cared about thier kids education $10,000 per year that they couldn't find a private school with a graduation rate better than 22% or hire tutors and home school them with a higher graduation rate. I'd think the rate would approach somewhere around 90-95%.

Imagine if this stat were the other way around. Imagine if there were no public education and a study showed that only 22% of students in a totally private system reach the equivalence of a High School Diploma. Everyone would say that the government has to step in and do something about it.

Maybe the government, at least in these districts, should step in and say that they don't know what they are doing.

[Lorizael]

First, there aren't enough private schools to fulfill that kind of demand.

Second, you're assuming it's the public schools which are the reason for the low graduation rates as opposed to the wider environment in which those students live.

[Deity Dude]

Originally posted by Lorizael
First, there aren't enough private schools to fulfill that kind of demand.

Second, you're assuming it's the public schools which are the reason for the low graduation rates as opposed to the wider environment in which those students live.

If there were enough students private schools would expand and new ones would be built.

I think it is a combination of both. But remember, school is the single location where a students spends most of his waking time. So you could argue the school is the major contributing factor to thier environment. Besides private schools and home schoolers in the same environment don't drop out 4/5ths of the time.

It obviously isn't working and it obviously isn't a lack of money. Why not try something else. Could it really get worse than a 21.7% graduation rate.

[Arrian]

You really don't believe that if you gave all Detroit parents who cared about thier kids education $10,000 per year that they couldn't find a private school with a graduation rate better than 22% or hire tutors and home school them with a higher graduation rate. I'd think the rate would approach somewhere around 90-95%.

And what do you wager that percentage is? That's my point. I don't know what the government can really do about it, mind you.

The parents are far more important than having a crappy teacher in first period Spanish class. So is your overall environment.

So again, I'm not anti-vouchers. I'm just saying they won't do much. They may do a little bit of good, and that's fine. But the impact is likely to be small unless other factors are somehow addressed. How, I don't know.

-Arrian

[Deity Dude]

Originally posted by Arrian


And what do you wager that percentage is? That's my point. I don't know what the government can really do about it, mind you.


-Arrian

Not everyone who lives in poor neighborhood doesn't care about thier kids. I would imagine there different levels of concern. I cn't really imagine too many not wanting what is best if it took no real extra effort other than picking a different school.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Deity Dude


You really don't believe that if you gave all Detroit parents who cared about thier kids education $10,000 per year that they couldn't find a private school with a graduation rate better than 22% or hire tutors and home school them with a higher graduation rate. I'd think the rate would approach somewhere around 90-95%.

No... as an economist, I believe if you did that private schools would just jack up their prices. If I were to buy into a more classical view, I might even argue that they'd increase their costs by exactly the amount of the voucher.

Imagine if this stat were the other way around. Imagine if there were no public education and a study showed that only 22% of students in a totally private system reach the equivalence of a High School Diploma. Everyone would say that the government has to step in and do something about it.

Maybe the government, at least in these districts, should step in and say that they don't know what they are doing.

Taking money away from these schools and throwing it at private institutions doesn't really seem to solve anything though.

[Deity Dude]

Who is taking. The school is paid for by money given to it by the people. You obviously fall into the trap that taxes are the government's money as opposed to money taken from the people.

Second, this is just common sense. Who cares if the price of private school goes up to the amouint of the entire voucher. They sill graduate more than 22%and that is the real goal. People whoargue against this lose site of the goal. They prefer to protect a government institution at all costs including the welfare of dare I say "the children".

You sound like the typical big government liberal, if there is a problem in the private sector it needs more regualation, if there is a problem in the public sector it needs more taxes.

Please make excuses or defned the 22% graduation rate some more - I love it.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
The primary failing of the American public school system is that it doesn't provide sufficient opportunities for the smart students to get better educations. I was one of the lucky ones who had that kind of opportunity (when my dad changed jobs, my HS was one of the main reasons we picked the DC area).

This I definitely disagree with. You are not looking at this from the big picture at all, but from a very elitist point of view.

The primary failing of the US system of public education is the students who do not manage to learn to read or do basic math skills, who drop out of school early, and who end up going nowhere because of a poor education. It is so easy to blame these kids or their parents, but when it comes down to it there are schools that do a great job with students that are in the same situations (parents who have a hard time caring, students who see nothing good in their future and don't care either) and manage to turn things around.

Society as a whole would be far better off with a near 100% literacy rate and every citizen having a chance to succeed. I agree there are many situations where smarter students need better opportinuties, but these situations pale in comparison to the students who never have a chance in the first place.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Arrian
My only question about vouchers is how that would really change those numbers?

Answer: it won't. Vouchers might help some students, by getting them out of those schools. Ok. The rest? Still screwed.

I'm not ideologically opposed to vouchers. But I don't seem them as a solution.

-Arrian

The benefit of vouchers: schools have an incentive to do better, and thus students are able to go to better schools.

The disadvantage: Many schools wouldn't do better, and the students whose parents can't get their kids to a different school (ie, can't drive them to school) end up even MORE screwed when their school loses half of its funding.

I think the latter outweighs the former, unfortunately. I think better standards - and better TRAINING - for schools and teachers will make way more of a difference than vouchers.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Deity Dude
You really don't believe that if you gave all Detroit parents who cared about thier kids education $10,000 per year that they couldn't find a private school with a graduation rate better than 22% or hire tutors and home school them with a higher graduation rate. I'd think the rate would approach somewhere around 90-95%.

You reallyt think that's going to happen?? Vouchers are not for the purpose of letting poor people move their kids to better schools; they're about diverting money away from public schoolt in order to subsidize the rich kids who are already in private schools.

[Deity Dude]

Not if they are available to everyone.

[Deity Dude]

Originally posted by snoopy369


The benefit of vouchers: schools have an incentive to do better, and thus students are able to go to better schools.

The disadvantage: Many schools wouldn't do better, and the students whose parents can't get their kids to a different school (ie, can't drive them to school) end up even MORE screwed when their school loses half of its funding.

I think the latter outweighs the former, unfortunately. I think better standards - and better TRAINING - for schools and teachers will make way more of a difference than vouchers.

Why do u feel people can get thier kids to a Public School but not a private school or even a tutor in thier own living room.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Deity Dude
Why do u feel people can get thier kids to a Public School but not a private school or even a tutor in thier own living room.

Public Schools have bus systems... and Public schools actually exist in rural areas. Most of the counties I lived in growing up didn't have any private schools. The only option was home schooling, and that's heavily dependant on the parent's financial situation.