Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Race, Intelligence, & Genetics or How James Watson pissed off a lot of people.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Race, Intelligence, & Genetics or How James Watson pissed off a lot of people.

    Anyone who has ever taken a basic biology class knows that Watson & Crick were the two scientists who discovered DNA and explained the mystery of genetics. Now the American Nobel Prize winning scientist has started a fire storm of controversy over his comments that black Africans are genetically destined to be less intelligent then Caucasians. Is this real science or just racist bull****?

    Fury at DNA pioneer's theory: Africans are less intelligent than Westerners
    Celebrated scientist attacked for race comments: "All our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really"
    By Cahal Milmo
    Published: 17 October 2007

    One of the world's most eminent scientists was embroiled in an extraordinary row last night after he claimed that black people were less intelligent than white people and the idea that "equal powers of reason" were shared across racial groups was a delusion.

    James Watson, a Nobel Prize winner for his part in the unravelling of DNA who now runs one of America's leading scientific research institutions, drew widespread condemnation for comments he made ahead of his arrival in Britain today for a speaking tour at venues including the Science Museum in London.

    The 79-year-old geneticist reopened the explosive debate about race and science in a newspaper interview in which he said Western policies towards African countries were wrongly based on an assumption that black people were as clever as their white counterparts when "testing" suggested the contrary. He claimed genes responsible for creating differences in human intelligence could be found within a decade.

    The newly formed Equality and Human Rights Commission, successor to the Commission for Racial Equality, said it was studying Dr Watson's remarks " in full". Dr Watson told The Sunday Times that he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours – whereas all the testing says not really". He said there was a natural desire that all human beings should be equal but "people who have to deal with black employees find this not true".

    His views are also reflected in a book published next week, in which he writes: "There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so."

    The furore echoes the controversy created in the 1990s by The Bell Curve, a book co-authored by the American political scientist Charles Murray, which suggested differences in IQ were genetic and discussed the implications of a racial divide in intelligence. The work was heavily criticised across the world, in particular by leading scientists who described it as a work of " scientific racism".

    Dr Watson arrives in Britain today for a speaking tour to publicise his latest book, Avoid Boring People: Lessons from a Life in Science. Among his first engagements is a speech to an audience at the Science Museum organised by the Dana Centre, which held a discussion last night on the history of scientific racism.

    Critics of Dr Watson said there should be a robust response to his views across the spheres of politics and science. Keith Vaz, the Labour chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, said: "It is sad to see a scientist of such achievement making such baseless, unscientific and extremely offensive comments. I am sure the scientific community will roundly reject what appear to be Dr Watson's personal prejudices.

    "These comments serve as a reminder of the attitudes which can still exists at the highest professional levels."

    The American scientist earned a place in the history of great scientific breakthroughs of the 20th century when he worked at the University of Cambridge in the 1950s and 1960s and formed part of the team which discovered the structure of DNA. He shared the 1962 Nobel Prize for medicine with his British colleague Francis Crick and New Zealand-born Maurice Wilkins.

    But despite serving for 50 years as a director of the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on Long Island, considered a world leader in research into cancer and genetics, Dr Watson has frequently courted controversy with some of his views on politics, sexuality and race. The respected journal Science wrote in 1990: "To many in the scientific community, Watson has long been something of a wild man, and his colleagues tend to hold their collective breath whenever he veers from the script."

    In 1997, he told a British newspaper that a woman should have the right to abort her unborn child if tests could determine it would be homosexual. He later insisted he was talking about a "hypothetical" choice which could never be applied. He has also suggested a link between skin colour and sex drive, positing the theory that black people have higher libidos, and argued in favour of genetic screening and engineering on the basis that " stupidity" could one day be cured. He has claimed that beauty could be genetically manufactured, saying: "People say it would be terrible if we made all girls pretty. I think it would great."

    The Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory said yesterday that Dr Watson could not be contacted to comment on his remarks.

    Steven Rose, a professor of biological sciences at the Open University and a founder member of the Society for Social Responsibility in Science, said: " This is Watson at his most scandalous. He has said similar things about women before but I have never heard him get into this racist terrain. If he knew the literature in the subject he would know he was out of his depth scientifically, quite apart from socially and politically."

    Anti-racism campaigners called for Dr Watson's remarks to be looked at in the context of racial hatred laws. A spokesman for the 1990 Trust, a black human rights group, said: "It is astonishing that a man of such distinction should make comments that seem to perpetuate racism in this way. It amounts to fuelling bigotry and we would like it to be looked at for grounds of legal complaint."


    That's from the Independent though the London Times and the Guardian have also run articles on Watson's theory.



    He won the Nobel prize for finding out what DNA looks like. Now James Watson is only too happy to spill the beans on old colleagues and rivals. By John Crace.
    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

  • #2
    The geneticist who sparked controversy by reportedly claiming black people were less intelligent than white people has had one of the dates of his promotional speaking tour cancelled


    That's a Daily Mail article on the same subject.

    BTW my take on this is that any measured difference in intelligence is likely due to the vastly lower human development which occurs in Africa. If you never have a chance to go to school and become educated then you don't do well on intelligence tests. Watson is a big advocate of genetic determinism though and he's one of the huge figures in the field of biology and genetics so it will be interesting to see what he has to say.
    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

    Comment


    • #3
      He has said stuff like this before. Much of it is that he likes to race bait. He also wants Borak to play him in a movie.
      "Yay Apoc!!!!!!!" - bipolarbear
      "At least there were some thoughts went into Apocalypse." - Urban Ranger
      "Apocalype was a great game." - DrSpike
      "In Apoc, I had one soldier who lasted through the entire game... was pretty cool. I like apoc for that reason, the soldiers are a bit more 'personal'." - General Ludd

      Comment


      • #4
        Until there's proof for his claims it's racist.
        I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
        - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Race, Intelligence, & Genetics or How James Watson pissed off a lot of people.

          Originally posted by Oerdin
          Is this real science or just racist bull****?
          It's someone rehashing IQ tests and then guessing that the results are due to genetics. (As opposed to say... cultural biases in IQ tests.)

          Real science would find the genetic evidence before making the claim.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm not aware that Watson is particularly more qualified to make this claim than any reasonably intelligent and well-educated person.

            Comment


            • #7
              Just goes to prove you can say whatever the hell you want when you're 79 and collecting decades of royalties from your books.
              "Wait a minute..this isn''t FAUX dive, it's just a DIVE!"
              "...Mangy dog staggering about, looking vainly for a place to die."
              "sauna stories? There are no 'sauna stories'.. I mean.. sauna is sauna. You do by the laws of sauna." -P.

              Comment


              • #8
                I remember a book called "The bell curve" that was already published a couple of years ago which more or less made the same claim
                (black americans are less intelligent than white ones)
                and of course also got widely criticized ofor this.
                Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Screw professional scientific opinion. People should treat others the same regardless of gender, race, class or religion.

                  Race is a lie, a myth created by people to justify hatred and segragation.
                  Taillesskangaru @ www.civunited.net

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It's not racist if it is based on research and studies. If those studies are proper, that's another question, but it still isn't racist if it is based on that stuff, even if it's wrong.

                    Also, even if it is true, so what? Does it mean we suddenly get to be more racist? No. It's not an excuse. Some people will use it as their tool for racism, however, even if studies would show that black people are not as intelligent as whities, so what? If there is no remarkable difference, it doesn't make much of a difference anyway.

                    In the pursuit of truth, opinion shouldn't matter. If it's a fact, it's a fact. YOu do what you want to do with it. Would it be racist to study and state that Asians are smarter than whites, or anyone else for that matter? Or is it just that blacks wouldn't be as smart as white people. It's like the positive stereotypes, where Asians are better at math. Somehow we encourage positive stereotypes, but when it comes to negative ones, it's racism. No, I mean either both are racist or neither of them are. When based on studies, it can't be racist. Motives behind studies might be racist, but then again they might not be, even then if the study is proper, it doesn't matter what the ulterior motive was.

                    Why people even care about this issue? People get fired up OOOH RACISTISA CIST AIST CAN*T BE TRUE! The other side is I KNEW IT! I KNEW THEY WERE IDIOTS AND I WAS RIGHT IN ALL OF MY OPINIONS.

                    To me, it doesn't matter. It definitely doesn't mean I am more intelligent than some black guy. As masses, there's BOUND to be some differencies, maybe they are miniscule, and most of them can be explained by other reasons like social opportunity, education, wealth etc. So in this sense, whites should be doing pretty good anyway.

                    So, why don't you racists and hippies just join hands and jump off from the cliff or fight each other, the rest of us don't care if some race is seen better or worse at some things, it doesn't show anyway and doesn't mean individuals would be better or worse. ONly racists have a problem with it because they're idiots, and hippies have a problem with this because they're PC fundamentalists, ruining the rest of the world that racists left untouched in their rampage of ruining things.
                    In da butt.
                    "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                    THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                    "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Wrong questions, Pekka. The very western notion of "intelligence" is what's bull****. Human cognitive abilities grow in a social environment, so it is impossible to even compare the "intelligence" of 2 people from markedly different social environments. Our perception of the IQ is mostly based on a mathematical-logical set of cognitive abilities. I'd be surprised if someone told me that a) black African societies or b) black minority groups in any white-dominated societies had the same socio-cultural background manifested in their education as whites did. So while they might respond as "less intelligent" according to the tests, it says nothing about their physical capacity (edit: to intelligence, as defined by their brain design).
                      Last edited by Ecthy; October 18, 2007, 07:43.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Honestly, if you have me take an IQ test now I'd fare in the ~120-130 range. Give me 2 months to deal with formal logic and maths to get (back) into real abstract-figurative thinking and I'll score significantly higher.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ecthy, it might be the wrong question. LIke I said, even if the studies are wrong in a way that they would represent it like you said, a western notion of what intelligence is and how you measure it, facts are still facts. I also said that the results are what should be expected, because of the social situation, wealth and education among the whities, and the fact that these are often measured with the white society standards, what those societies hold high and train for. It's like a skiing competition, where Austrian athletes would compete against sub-saharan people. Of course the Austrians would win it.

                          Of course it is only fair to recognize what these tests measure and what they don't measure. It's still not racist. It might be, at the most, a meaningless result.

                          That's what I said as well, I don't think the result really matters. THere's no remarkable differencies, I mean if they were, we'd notice it pretty much in our everyday life.

                          AND if someone can measure the physical capacity and it turns out to be a fact, it still doesn't mean it's racist. I'm not so much asking questions as I'm just stating that people are getting their panties on a twist once again. EVEN if the physical capacity was measured and it was clear that whities have better capacity than blacks, there would still be the same people crying it's racist and not true, even if it was scientifically valid and shown and proven.

                          This is because they have no regard for science. Just like religious fundamentalists. The PC fundamentalists in my mind are about or just as bad as racists.
                          In da butt.
                          "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                          THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                          "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ecthy is spot on here. IQ tests are total bullcrap and measure little but the ability to do IQ tests. Intelligence is far more complex than that.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I see what he is saying in terms of evolution, you can't have geographically seperated populations and expect then to develope along the same lines. However, I would say the time frame we are talking about in evolutionary terms is not long enough to make any real difference.

                              In any case so what? Its not like we give all 12 year olds an IQ test and divided into Alphas/Betas/Deltas/Gammas, we treat everyone the same as far as civil interaction. We don't deal with people as races anymore (for the most part), but as individuals.
                              "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X