Race, Intelligence, & Genetics or How James Watson pissed off a lot of people.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Wrong questions, Pekka. The very western notion of "intelligence" is what's bull****. Human cognitive abilities grow in a social environment, so it is impossible to even compare the "intelligence" of 2 people from markedly different social environments. Our perception of the IQ is mostly based on a mathematical-logical set of cognitive abilities. I'd be surprised if someone told me that a) black African societies or b) black minority groups in any white-dominated societies had the same socio-cultural background manifested in their education as whites did. So while they might respond as "less intelligent" according to the tests, it says nothing about their physical capacity (edit: to intelligence, as defined by their brain design).

Bingo.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Pekka
It's not racist if it is based on research and studies.

Scientific Racism

[Proteus_MST]

One wonders if those people that are enraged by Watsons comments (and/or the book "The bell curve") would be as enraged if the result would be the other way round, i.e. blacks are more intelligent than whites.

[Wezil]

I'll support you Pekka.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
One wonders if those people that are enraged by Watsons comments (and/or the book "The bell curve") would be as enraged if the result would be the other way round, i.e. blacks are more intelligent than whites.

I think they found that asians are smarter than whites, but then I think that's racist too.

[Wezil]

Disclaimer: I am not a scientist or researcher. My comments are from a layman's perspective.

We know gentics plays a huge role in determining the structure and abilities of our bodies. I don't have a hard time thinking our brain power might also be in that category (our heads are also physical). Indeed, genetic causes for some types of "mental illness" and abnormalities are suspected.

I do realise and understand the problems inherent in "measuring" and "evaluating" this issue with factors such as culture and education thrown into the mix. I don't think we should stop studying an issue b/c it is difficult.

Is this particular scientist a racist? I haven't a clue and don't really care. It is interesting to see the voices opposed to such inquiries and wonder what they are afraid of? Is it racist scientists or research that conflicts uncomfortably with preconcieved notions?

[Elok]

Geez, why didn't Caligastia tell us he was a Nobel-prize winner?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I see what he is saying in terms of evolution, you can't have geographically seperated populations and expect then to develope along the same lines. However, I would say the time frame we are talking about in evolutionary terms is not long enough to make any real difference.

How long do you think would be long enough?

In any case so what? Its not like we give all 12 year olds an IQ test and divided into Alphas/Betas/Deltas/Gammas, we treat everyone the same as far as civil interaction. We don't deal with people as races anymore (for the most part), but as individuals.

Actually, we do deal with people as races, but who cares if group averages are different? That shouldn't matter to any individual who isn't overly racially chauvinistic...and it's not like there's any proof that the averages are the same.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Wezil
It is interesting to see the voices opposed to such inquiries and wonder what they are afraid of? Is it racist scientists or research that conflicts uncomfortably with preconcieved notions?

I don't have a problem with people researching this; science dictates that we should research everything. I just think that we're not going to get any meaningful results until we have a better idea of what intelligence is and where it comes from. If it turns out the blacks are objectively dumber than whites, I'll change my tune and be completely okay with going back to slavery.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Wezil
Is this particular scientist a racist? I haven't a clue and don't really care.

Of course he's racist. Why wouldn't you have a clue about that?

It is interesting to see the voices opposed to such inquiries and wonder what they are afraid of? Is it racist scientists or research that conflicts uncomfortably with preconcieved notions?

We are afraid of racism.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Lorizael


I don't have a problem with people researching this; science dictates that we should research everything. I just think that we're not going to get any meaningful results until we have a bettrer idea of what intelligence is and where it comes from.

Sounds like it is difficult to measure. Keep trying.

If it turns out the blacks are objectively dumber than whites, I'll change my tune and be completely okay with going back to slavery.

Huge red herring. I never argued anything of the sort. As was mentioned earlier, people deserve to be treated equally and with respect, despite their genetics.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Wezil
Disclaimer: I am not a scientist or researcher. My comments are from a layman's perspective.

We know gentics plays a huge role in determining the structure and abilities of our bodies. I don't have a hard time thinking our brain power might also be in that category (our heads are also physical). Indeed, genetic causes for some types of "mental illness" and abnormalities are suspected.

I do realise and understand the problems inherent in "measuring" and "evaluating" this issue with factors such as culture and education thrown into the mix. I don't think we should stop studying an issue b/c it is difficult.

Is this particular scientist a racist? I haven't a clue and don't really care. It is interesting to see the voices opposed to such inquiries and wonder what they are afraid of? Is it racist scientists or research that conflicts uncomfortably with preconcieved notions?

A bit of both I'd say. There's no denying that some scientists have used questionable research to make sweeping racial conclusions, but on the other hand you have the "anti-racists" whose self-righteous hysteria rivals that of the most ardent religionist.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Wezil
Huge red herring. I never argued anything of the sort. As was mentioned earlier, people deserve to be treated equally and with respect, despite their genetics.

I know. But it's more fun to argue that way.

[Wezil]

I like all people (except the Dutch of course) so I am not concerned with what they may find. I'm sure any differences would be minor and as I said, I'll treat people as they deserve to be treated regardless.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Wezil
Huge red herring. I never argued anything of the sort. As was mentioned earlier, people deserve to be treated equally and with respect, despite their genetics.

Fine, but what is the purpose of this type of research?