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George Lucas, not content to let dead horse lie, begins raping it with lightsaber...

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  • #76
    Differences that I liked about Thrawn as opposed to other SW Imperials:

    1. Avoid superweapons. Use more mundane things in creative an unusual ways.

    2. Avoid over the top scenery-chewing badguy behavior. Thrawn doesn't Force choke people. He doesn't seal people in spaceships and send them into stars. He's purely interested in waging a war and the tactics involved there. To me, this is the difference between a "worthy enemy" like Rommel, whose primary input was just his battlefield canniness, and a "louche enemy" like Himmler, who went to all sorts of extremes persecuting Jews and didn't seem that concerned with the actual collapsing state of his nation. (Not that I condone Nazis. The point I'm trying to make is you can have capable generals who might have been good generals if they were on the right side - those you can respect. And then you can have excessive leaders who will never be "on the right side" because any side they're on will by association become the "wrong side" because of their excesses.)


    As to Thrawn's actual tactical prowess, these were the things I really appreciated:

    1. Thrawn has a cloaking device. Most planets have orbital shields that are able to withstand ship bombardments. Thrawn smuggles a few cloaked ships at strategic points past the orbital shield. He positions them carefully inside the orbital shield.

    Later, he opens fire with a big ship in orbit. The laser blast travels towards the shield and hits it, then dissipates. However, the invisible ship INSIDE the shield opens fire at just about the same time. Because the cloaked ship is inside, its laser blast hits home along the same trajectory. To an outside observer, it seems that the big ship fired a pulse that bashed through the shield and hit the planet's surface. Scary stuff! After several salvoes of this, the planet's inhabitants believe Thrawn has a superweapon that can shoot past planetary shields. They surrender.

    2. Thrawn has a cloaking device. His ships snare an unspecified number of asteroids. They plant cloaking devices on the asteroids, so the asteroids are invisible. His fleet travels to the Republic capital planet and blockades it. They release the asteroids into orbit using tractor beam pulses. Because the asteroids are invisible, Republic craft in the area are destroyed unpredictably through asteroid collisions. The entire planet goes into a state of isolated quarantine, with no ships going in or out. They gradually sweep the orbits looking for asteroids. They find a few dozen, but are still looking for a few hundred, since Thrawn's tractor beam pulses numbered that many.

    Turns out there only ever were a few dozen. The rest of the tractor beam pulses were just decoys, causing them to waste time looking for asteroids that weren't there.

    3. Thrawn has a cloaking device. (Did I mention this?) He also has a few mining vehicles. He equips an old shipping container with TIE Fighters and makes them cloaked to bypass sensors. The shipping container floats into a Republic shipyard and then detonates, freeing the TIE Fighters, who then uncloak and engage the Rebel fighter defense. Meanwhile, Thrawn's main fleet arrives and sends mining vehicles out to the enemy capital ships.

    The mining vehicles mine through the command centers of the capital ships and Thrawn's stormtroopers clamber through and disable the Rebel crews. The plan is for them to capture the enemy capital ships and take them away.

    (And one more spoiler, this time from the amazing PC game TIE Fighter from 1995.)

    4. Thrawn has a cloaking device, but it doesn't work too well. It has problems when the user enters hyperspace. Thrawn is tasked with capturing rogue Admiral Zaarin. Zaarin humiliates Thrawn by capturing his cloaking technology prototype. Thrawn maneuvers Zaarin into a certain defeat scenario where the only option is to escape in hyperspace. Zaarin does so while cloaked, which causes a catastrophic reaction. The craft splits apart in hyperspace, killing all inside.
    "lol internet" ~ AAHZ

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    • #77
      Avoid superweapons.
      You mean like a cloaking device?

      Or cloning vats?

      Thrawn was only a tactical genious because the author said he was, he doesn't come up with anything that a 5th grader couldn't have thought of. All the times Zahn trys to show his genius you end up having to roll your eyes at how pathetically simple/predictabe/obvious his ideas are (which just shows how retarded the other authors are that they can't come up with anything better).

      Want an idea Thrawn? How about you cloak a minefield in front of your fleet at Bilbrinji, game over for the NR.

      I do see what you're saying about the "mundane" equipment used. But we have yet to see in any of the novels (or movies for that matter) a fleet battle worthy of what the SW universe can produce. As it is right now we have no idea what happened to 99.99% of the Imperial fleet, or where 99.99% of the NR fleet came from.
      Last edited by Patroklos; October 19, 2007, 13:05.
      "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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      • #78
        The whole idea of "putting a shield around a planet"

        The whole idea of "cloaking"

        I can't bring myself to criticize point by point... mouth-breathing SW fans are impervious to logic. Casting pearls before swine, and all that.
        (\__/) Save a bunny, eat more Smurf!
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        • #79
          Cloaking is kinda common in scifi though, Stray. Can't be critical on that point.
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          • #80
            Planetary shields aren't terribly difficult to believe once you accept shields in the first place...

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            • #81
              Originally posted by DinoDoc
              Cloaking is kinda common in scifi though, Stray. Can't be critical on that point.

              Yes I can. A few instances have cloaking being something that only works if the ship is "running silent." Like in Balance Of Terror. Firing a weapon, or cranking up the maneuver drive, etc. spoils the effect. Careful inspection reveals visible distortions.
              (\__/) Save a bunny, eat more Smurf!
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              (")_(") Smurf, the original blue meat! © 1999, patent pending, ® and ™ (except that "Smurf" bit)

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Kuciwalker
                Planetary shields aren't terribly difficult to believe once you accept shields in the first place...

                A shield a few hundred meters across, projected a short distance from the vessel >>>>>>>> a shield 500,000,000 km² in area projected at orbital altitude.
                (\__/) Save a bunny, eat more Smurf!
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                (")_(") Smurf, the original blue meat! © 1999, patent pending, ® and ™ (except that "Smurf" bit)

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Straybow
                  Originally posted by DinoDoc
                  Cloaking is kinda common in scifi though, Stray. Can't be critical on that point.

                  Yes I can. A few instances have cloaking being something that only works if the ship is "running silent." Like in Balance Of Terror. Firing a weapon, or cranking up the maneuver drive, etc. spoils the effect. Careful inspection reveals visible distortions.
                  And in SW's case, the weakness is that the cloak works both ways. It also can't mask a ship's drive emissions.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Straybow
                    Originally posted by Kuciwalker
                    Planetary shields aren't terribly difficult to believe once you accept shields in the first place...

                    A shield a few hundred meters across, projected a short distance from the vessel >>>>>>>> a shield 500,000,000 km² in area projected at orbital altitude.
                    Hyperspeed. Lightsabers. The Force.

                    Edit: I forgot one: that technological terror, the Death Star.
                    Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                    "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Patroklos

                      Thrawn was only a tactical genious [genius? ] because the author said he was, he doesn't come up with anything that a 5th grader couldn't have thought of. All the times Zahn trys to show his genius you end up having to roll your eyes at how pathetically simple/predictabe/obvious his ideas are (which just shows how retarded the other authors are that they can't come up with anything better).
                      My {TASTY} hat is off to you if you honestly thought the ideas were simple, predictable, or obvious.

                      I was personally quite impressed by Zahn's ideas for Thrawn and I have to admit I would not have thought of them myself. (And I don't consider myself to be a particularly stupid person, though perhaps faced with your superior intellect I may have to reconsider this in a harsher light.)

                      As I was reading through the Thrawn trilogy, I personally felt that Zahn falls into the same trap that Milton did with Paradise Lost. He makes the main badguy such a clever and sympathetic character that he sort of outshines the good characters. I found myself rooting for Thrawn much more than I did for Bel Iblis and the other Republic/Rebellion characters. I also found the plot mechanics that he used to defeat Thrawn in the end (Leia's ties to the Noghri, and Talon Karrde's supposed conversion from neutrality to opposing the Empire) were not particularly convincing and seemed to show an author grasping at ways of stopping the momentum of a particularly compelling baddie.

                      I agree with you that Zahn is far superior to other SW writers, especially Kevin J. Anderson, whom I consider the lowest of the low.

                      Edit: I had to include the word "TASTY" in front of my hat mention.
                      Last edited by Alinestra Covelia; October 20, 2007, 09:54.
                      "lol internet" ~ AAHZ

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                      • #86
                        So what we can expect is Star Wars sans the budget for good special effects?



                        IT'S A TRAP!!!
                        I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                        I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Patroklos

                          ...
                          Thrawn was only a tactical genious because the author said he was, he doesn't come up with anything that a 5th grader couldn't have thought of. All the times Zahn trys to show his genius you end up having to roll your eyes at how pathetically simple/predictabe/obvious his ideas are (which just shows how retarded the other authors are that they can't come up with anything better).

                          Want an idea Thrawn? How about you cloak a minefield in front of your fleet at Bilbrinji, game over for the NR.

                          ...
                          But are the ideas of the responsible generals/admirals in the original Star Wars any better?

                          Where, for example, was the imperial fleet in Star Wars IV?
                          One should assume that the empire (or more specifically, Grand Moff Tarkin [or at least his superiors, like Palpatine]), upon knowing where the Rebel HQ is, would use more than just the death star alone to attack Yavin. After all they have lots of Star Destroyers at their hands that can support the attack.

                          Same goes for V:
                          Why does Vader order the captains of his SDs to enter deeper into the asteroid field knowing that many of them might get destroyed, instead of just using the complements of Tie Fighters and Tie Bombers to search and hunt the Millenium Falcon down?
                          Losses that didn´t have any gain.

                          And for Part VI:
                          Considering the fact that the rebels already attacked the side entrance of the Shield generator facility once, one should assume that the imperials are much more careful and don´t send out all of their troops through the same entrance, just because a single ATST-Pilot says that the rebels are fleeing into the woods.
                          There were obviously AT-ATs on the planet (as could be seen when Luke was brought to the landing platform), so one should assume that the commander of the facility just orders them to hunt down the rebels and not those troops that are vital for guarding the shield.


                          All in all, if one looks, one can find lots of tactical flaws also in the strategists of the original movies, so much that one might come to the conclusion, that the empire is ruled by morons

                          Maybe in comparison to these, Thrawns capabilities do indeed shine
                          Last edited by Proteus_MST; October 20, 2007, 02:06.
                          Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                          Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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                          • #88
                            Hey, I've got a great idea for a plot for Lucas' new TV show.
                            It seems there's this ring which possesses the powers of the old Sith. The ring is in the possession of an elderly Jedi, Dildo, who bequeths it to his son Frito. Frito is a padawan being trained by the great master Jedi, Goodgulf. Goodgulf learns that the Sith Lord Sorehead is returning to claim the ring in order to restore the Sith to their former greatness. Goodgulf sends word to Frito to go on the lam, but is way laid by the Jedi traitor, Sourpuss. Eventually Goodgulf escapes and joins Frito who by now is accompanied by his friends, SammyDavis, Dr Pepper, and Murky. With Goodgulf the group is also joined by Legolamb, Arrowhead, Gimpy, and Boring. Together they go off on a quest to destroy the evil ring.
                            "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
                              Hey, I've got a great idea for a plot for Lucas' new TV show.
                              It seems there's this ring which possesses the powers of the old Sith. The ring is in the possession of an elderly Jedi, Dildo, who bequeths it to his son Frito. Frito is a padawan being trained by the great master Jedi, Goodgulf. Goodgulf learns that the Sith Lord Sorehead is returning to claim the ring in order to restore the Sith to their former greatness. Goodgulf sends word to Frito to go on the lam, but is way laid by the Jedi traitor, Sourpuss. Eventually Goodgulf escapes and joins Frito who by now is accompanied by his friends, SammyDavis, Dr Pepper, and Murky. With Goodgulf the group is also joined by Legolamb, Arrowhead, Gimpy, and Boring. Together they go off on a quest to destroy the evil ring.
                              Too many characters. It'll never work.
                              I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                              I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

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                              • #90
                                Courage, Willow.
                                "lol internet" ~ AAHZ

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