Evidence For "God"

[Sandman]

A debunking of this fairy tale is available here: http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/VA243seal.pdf.

The writing says 'Dubsiga, Ili-illiat, your/his servant'.

[Berzerker]

Thats a great site for the pics, not much for his analysis. I've read his site before, he hasn't made any improvements or corrections.

Since you didn't quote your source that leaves me to deal with what he says. Thats too much to deal with so I'll address his main points.

there is not a single text in the entire corpus of Sumerian or Mesopotamian tablets in the world that says the Sumerians or Mesopotamians knew of more than five planets.

That may or may not be true, but we do know the Sumerians were big on the number 12 wrt cosmology and associated these deities with celestial bodies in our solar system, their pantheon had 12 members, not 5 or 7 (the number of planets, Sun and Moon according to some modern interpretations of ancient cosmology). But consider this, after traveling to Egypt and Mesopotamia, Democritus told his fellow Greeks that there are more planets than can be seen with the naked eye. He didn't have our problem, he could talk to Chaldean astronomers so I consider him a better source than modern interpretations of images from people who are locked into the belief ancient man didn't know about our solar system even when faced with a clear image on a cylinder seal.

1) The inscription on the seal (left hand and right hand sides – which are not discussed by Sitchin) says nothing about planets or any element of astronomy. Rather than offering an independent translation, I will defer to authorities on Sumerian seal inscriptions in this regard to avoid any charge of bias.

The scene is of one deity introducing a human to another deity, so what? Even your source asserts the star symbol is a star, he's just arguing that the dots around the star are also stars and that the center star is not the sun. But he doesn't even try to identify the star or constellation, why? Because it doesn't represent a constellation and the dots dont represent stars.

2) The alleged “sun” symbol on the seal is not the sun. We know this because it does not conform to the consistent depiction of the sun in hundreds of other cylinder seals and examples of Sumero-Mesopotamian artwork. I will describe the typical depiction (determined with certainty because it appears with texts about the sun god [Shamash Akkadian, known as Utu in Sumerian]) and provide image examples.

Here your source is using circular logic, Utu/Shamash was represented by a 4 pointed star with an additional 4 wavy lines at 45 degree angles. But this symbol doesn't represent the Sun, it represents Utu/Shamash. These deities were, according to the Sumerians, here on Earth interacting with humans. They were not literally the celestial bodies in our solar system. If the Sumerians wanted to depict the Sun and not Utu/Shamash, they wouldn't use his symbol.

Furthermore, he contradicts himself by showing an image of what he calls the winged sun disk over a "scorpion man". But that isn't Utu/Shamash's symbol nor is he the scorpion man. While Sitchin says the winged disk is the 12th planet and not the sun, your source believes the winged disk is the sun. Does he offer up images of Utu/Shamash depicted by the winged "sun" disk? Nope, his symbol is the 4 pointed star with 4 wavy lines at 45 degree angles. That doesn't mean the Sun was always or had to be represented by his symbol...

The “sun” symbol is actually a star (which in Mesopotamian art could have six or, more commonly, eight points). Lest the modern reader retort that “well, the sun is a star,” I offer several images where the star symbol and the sun symbol (which again, is not that in VA243) are side-by-side and distinct from one another.

Again, your source is confusing the symbols of deities with symbols for celestial objects. He shows 2 pics of 3 symbols and assumes these represent celestial objects. They don't, they represent the deities associated with 3 celestial objects. The crescent moon, "star" and "sun" refer to Sin (the Moon god), Inanna/Ishtar (Venus), and Utu/Shamash - these three deities were often grouped together because they were close kin and worship of one usually meant worship of all three.

The Sumerians not only depicted stars with points (now I'm making an assumption), they depicted the planets with points when associating them with deities to tell them apart. Ishtar was Venus and represented by an 8 pointed star, a 6 pointed star represented Ares/Mars (cant think of his Sumerian counterpart now). Coincidently, Mars is the 6th planet and Venus is the 8th planet, the Earth is the 7th planet.

When a lone "star" appears above a deity, it identifies the deity, not a star. There are many many stars, how does an 8 or 6 pointed star allow for distinctions between all the possible candidates? Is an 8 pointed star Regulus? Aldebaran? Some other star? "Horns" identify deities, not a star above their head. A star may tell us which deity when present... Thats why the points on stars vary. For example

In this example, the obvious star symbol has eight points, and is very similar in design to the star symbol of VA 243. We know it’s a star and not the sun because the goddess depicted is Ishtar.

Ishtar is Venus, not a star. Your source even acknowledges that after insisting its a star above her head.

Your source, and many scholars, automatically assume any grouping of 7 dots represents the Pleaides. Depending on one's eyesight, there are 6 or up to 13 or more stars in the Pleaides. The number 7 is sacred because of its association with the planet Earth, not the Pleaides. That doesn't mean the Pleaides were never depicted, but one must take care when making assumptions. Sumerian depictions of the 7 dots formed a rosetta with a central dot, some later depictions more closely resemble the actual constellation. Were the Sumerians ignorant of what the constellation looked like or were they representing something else? Are the dots surrounding the star in that image the same size? The "stars" supposedly representing the stars of the Pleaides are the same size, no attempt to make any distinctions. Clearly there is relevance to the seal makers attempt to distinguish the dots - and just as the Enuma Elish says, 3 pairs of planets, the first was small, the next pair was the largest, and the third was larger than the first but not as large as the 2nd pair. There they are on the seal.

More probable is the idea that the central star stands for a deity that has some association with fertility (as in crops) since the inscription describes an offering made by a worshipper (who is named) to a seated god who is associated in the seal with fertile harvest. Since there are two other figures in the seal in addition to the seated god, and one is the offerer, the remaining figure is likely a deity also associated with the offering. In favor of this possibility are the “implements” shown on the seal with respect to these two figures facing the seated god and the figure’s headdress. Also in its favor is the fact that there are literally hundreds of such “offering seals,” and many have a star in upper proximity to the figures’ heads, signifying the figure is a deity (see the example).

Not a star surrounded by 11 dots roughly conforming to our solar system.

Since the star is surrounded by eleven other stars (dots), the artistic depiction could stand for the lead god of the Mesopotamian divine council and its other eleven (upper tier) members. Recall that (as Sitchin again points out) the Mesopotamian council had 12 members. I have noted before that the 12 member council isn’t always consistent in Mesopotamian religion (at times eight gods are considered the council), but 12 is the more prevalent number. This thesis is attractive, but I can’t say there is much to commend it over option B. The reader might be thinking at this point, “Well, isn’t the sun god the leader of the pantheon – so if this symbology points to the divine council the center symbol could still be the sun?” This would be an erroneous line of thought since in Sumero-Mesopotamian religion the sun god is NOT the high god; the high god is Anu (later, Marduk), not Shamash.

Now he's just being silly, he stumbles onto the possibility the seated deity is the head god and that the star represents him while the 11 dots represent the remaining members of the council. Thats 12 members of the council and 12 celestial objects depicted on the seal. What happened to that limitation on Sumerian knowledge - only 5 planets, Sun and Moon? If Utu/Shamash wasn't the head god, why use his symbol for the sun in that rendering of our solar system? None of the other deities have symbols identifying them. If the dots are stars, why are stars representing deities associated with planets? Venus is not a star, the Moon is not a star, yet the deities associated with these non-stars are members of the council of 12...

We are not dealing with a depiction of the solar system. Astronomer Tom van Flandern pointed this out years ago anyway, since the sizes of the “planets” around the alleged sun do not conform to the correct sizes of the planets and there distances from the pseudo-sun are not depicted in such a way as to depict elliptical (or at least varying) orbits. The link to van Flandern’s critique is on my website.

Have you seen a scale depiction of the solar system in any book? Our solar system is compacted and distorted so it will fit on a page and still have objects we can see. The planets are not to scale nor are their distances. This criticism is not only ridiculous, its ironic given that it was van Flandern who noticed the 2 to 1 pattern of planets that supports Sitchin's theory.

[Arrian]

Wait. So are you claiming that the ancient Sumerians knew how the Earth was formed (or changed) 4 billion years ago?

-Arrian

[Lancer]

The implication is that God told em.

[Elok]

Also, Atlantis was run by the Aztecs, and the Illuminati are working at your local Burger King.

[Sandman]

Spot the difference...

[Sandman]

.

[Ninot]

MAYBE the Sumerians were actually an alien but human civilization, that came down here to kinda start up our process of civilization?

We shouldn't piss them off. Let's redeclare Pluto a planet before they come back to teach us a lesson

[Sandman]

That may or may not be true, but we do know the Sumerians were big on the number 12 wrt cosmology and associated these deities with celestial bodies in our solar system, their pantheon had 12 members, not 5 or 7 (the number of planets, Sun and Moon according to some modern interpretations of ancient cosmology). But consider this, after traveling to Egypt and Mesopotamia, Democritus told his fellow Greeks that there are more planets than can be seen with the naked eye. He didn't have our problem, he could talk to Chaldean astronomers so I consider him a better source than modern interpretations of images from people who are locked into the belief ancient man didn't know about our solar system even when faced with a clear image on a cylinder seal.

Just because they associated planets with some gods, does not mean all gods had to have a planet.

Democritus lived more than 7000 years after the Ancient Sumerians, he's scarcely any nearer to them than us.

It's not clear why a group of alien scientists that have bred humans to mine gold to repair their planet's atmosphere would correspond to the 'number of planets'. Dramatic effect?

[Japher]

It's Nibiru

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Sandman

Democritus lived more than 7000 years after the Ancient Sumerians, he's scarcely any nearer to them than us.

The earliest Sumerians are from some 5000 BC, so are you suggesting that Democritus are alive now or sometime in the future ?

[Arrian]

I was wondering about that too...

-Arrian

[Shrapnel12]

Some Sumerian child was writing on the walls and you guys give it cosmic meaning.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Arrian
I was wondering about that too...

-Arrian

It's actually more complicated than that - we are not living in 2007 but 9007 !.

[Sandman]

OK, 4500 years (and 1700 from the cylinder), my mistake.