Evidence For "God"

[Aeson]

I still fail to see how they could have known about Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto. You need some evidence to back up that they could possibly have had knowlege of them.

Even if they had gotten the number of solar bodies correct it's a tremendous leap of faith to assume that they derived that number from the planets they couldn't see... And given that they missed on the count of solar bodies (if we're including moons and proto-planets... by a whole lot), I don't see any reason to believe they were refering to the actual planets; Neptune, Uranus, Pluto (cause it used to be a planet! ), and the "other one".

[Berzerker]

Wait. So are you claiming that the ancient Sumerians knew how the Earth was formed (or changed) 4 billion years ago?

They knew the Earth was born from the remains or debris of a celestial battle, and that the location of this battle was marked - the Bible calls it the "firmament", the Akkadians called it the hammered out bracelet, and it was depicted as a serpent in a half circle around a man and the sun in at least one other ancient culture (Lost Red Paint People ringing the North Atlantic 7500 ya). Tiamat was the serpent, the celestial serpent - the watery dragon. She became the biblical Tehom in Genesis.

Nibiru, the name for the 12th planet according to Sitchin means the planet of the crossing or cross. The ancient hebrew were called habiru I think, and it means the people of the crossing. Btw, an ancient name for Peru is...Beru Damn I wish I could fine the image of the Incan Holy of Holies, I have it in 2 books but cant find it on the internet. The "Creator" in the Incan Genesis is depicted as an ellipse separating or joining 9 celestial bodies in groups of 4 and 5 - just like our solar system. The sacred monkey drawn on the Nazca plain has a spiraling tail and his paws have 4 fingers on one and 5 on the other as the monkey peers down between his hands. Some bizarre stuff out there

Did they know how long ago this happened, maybe, maybe not. Mythical numbers like that would be very rare and easily overlooked or dismissed by researchers. But they did date our emergence into the world according to Sitchin and I've never seen his argument refuted or even challenged. The Sumerians had a "year of God" so to speak, a "Divine Year" that the gods went by - 3600 years = 1 Sar or divine year (notice the word?). The Sar would come to be Caesar and Czar in later cultures. Anyway, and I'm doing this from memory, the Sumerians claim the gods came down to Earth about 123 Sars ago - 120 Sars up until the Great Flood and ~3 more since. Thats 432,000 years up until the Flood, if you research that number and its multiples, you'll see just how widespread it is.

Some time after that, I believe Sitchin has the number of Sars (I think it may be 40), the lower gods rebelled from having to work so a primitive worker was fashioned from an existing creature living in Ea/Enki's domain (believed to be Egypt/Africa). The early humans were hybrids and couldn't procreate, so later on the primitive workers were modified again to allow for procreation. This may be the kernel of truth behind the biblical story of the Garden of Eden. Enki the serpent god brought us procreation and his brother Enlil was mad because we were growing in numbers and he booted the primitive workers he had out of his "Garden". Then he sought to keep us ignorant about an impending disaster - the Great Flood. But Enki warned the Sumerian Noah and we survived.

Sitchin dated our entry into the world at around 250,000 ya, and he did that before the DNA research showing our common ancestor lived ~250,000 years ago. It would be nice if Sitchin's critics would acknowledge his accomplishments. By studying these peoples he deduced that "Adam and Eve" lived about 250,000 years ago and DNA research backs him up.

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Hey Sandman, not even your source argued its an image of the Pleaides, he even emphasized he was not claiming its the Pleaides. But go right ahead and explain why you think it is. And then you can explain why your source shows several images with the Pleaides as 7 dots in two rows of 3 and 4. Btw, that exact same image appears on the Incan Genesis but it appears immediately below the Earth with no other objects nearby - 7 is the number for Earth.

Just because they associated planets with some gods, does not mean all gods had to have a planet.

Well, we are kinda limited on the number of planets, aren't we. Limited to... 12 if we count the sun and moon and Sitchin's 12th planet. And there we have the Sumerian pantheon of 12... Their mathematics and astronomy was based on these numbers and we still have remnants of it 4,000 years later.

Democritus lived more than 7000 years after the Ancient Sumerians, he's scarcely any nearer to them than us.

He lived maybe 1700 years after this cylinder seal. And shortly before his time the Babylonians had enjoyed a resurgence of things Sumerian, Nebuchednezzar even wrote how he could read the ancient Sumerian texts from the golden age before the fall of Sumer around 2000 BC. This was around the time the Bible started being written as the Jews were in "captivity" in Babylon. The Sumerian language finally went extinct shortly before or after the time of Christ...

It's not clear why a group of alien scientists that have bred humans to mine gold to repair their planet's atmosphere would correspond to the 'number of planets'. Dramatic effect?

Why do we put wings on pilots and astronauts? Its called symbolism. The Sumerians claim the gods gave them knowledge about events before we were even in existence, including the creation story that was played out during a 12 day new year's festival in which the planets/gods played their respective roles. As for mining, Sitchin has articles from mining companies in Africa that have found evidence of very ancient mining (~200,000 ya?) at a time we were supposedly rooting around for berries.

The Zulu have a myth about their ancient times, they claim the gods instructed them to wage war against the apemen. The ancient Zulu called themselves "the artificial ones"...

I still fail to see how they could have known about Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto. You need some evidence to back up that they could possibly have had knowlege of them.

We have the Father of Greek astronomy traveling the ancient Middle East and announcing upon his return to Greece that there are more planets than can be seen by the naked eye. We have a representation of our solar system on a 4200 year old cylinder seal, and we have the Enuma Elish and Genesis which describe events before the Earth was created out of the ruins of a larger planet residing between Mars and Jupiter. That creation story describes 6 of those planets as pairs, Venus and Mars are the gods of war (Venus would later become associated with beauty as Ishtar/Aphrodite), Jupiter and Saturn, and finally Uranus and Neptune - and the creation story even got them in the right order
with their relative sizes.

Even if they had gotten the number of solar bodies correct it's a tremendous leap of faith to assume that they derived that number from the planets they couldn't see...

It didn't take a leap of faith for Democritus.

And given that they missed on the count of solar bodies (if we're including moons and proto-planets... by a whole lot), I don't see any reason to believe they were refering to the actual planets; Neptune, Uranus, Pluto (cause it used to be a planet! ), and the "other one".

Where did the asteroids come from? Debris from the collision. What collision? The collision astronomers believe occurred about 4 bya between the "Earth" and a Mars sized object. The Sumerian version claims Tiamat was struck by the moons ("Winds") of an invading planet (with a retrograde orbit, long term comets tend to follow retrograde orbits). How much of this debris was from the collision and how much is remnants of the condensing nebula? We dont know, but if the Earth had formed and then was struck 4 billion years ago, alot of that loose rock flying around today came from that collision. The Sumerian/Akkadian/Babylonian creation story was not about to include every chunk of rock flying around into the story of creation, only the main players. But the Enuma Elish does mention a host of smaller bodies that fled at the sight of Marduk as he approached Tiamat to do battle.

Keep an open mind, I was highly skeptical when I started reading Sitchin and I still dont buy into some of his claims. My biggest problem is how this planet following a highly elliptical orbit passing between Mars and Jupiter can retain enough heat for life forms to live on the surface, much less allow for humanoids to evolve.

[Aeson]

You're really stretching things. Give us some method which they could have known about these things, and then we can look for evidence if such a thing were possible. Until then, how in the world do you just assume they knew of events billions of years ago and planets they couldn't see?

As for the asteroid belt, we don't know where it came from for sure. One theory is that Jupiter's gravitational pull interrupted the formation of a planet in that orbit.

[Berzerker]

A taste of the evidence has already been posted. Do you want 20 images of our solar system? I know of several. The Toltec believed Heaven had 13 levels with the Creator occupying 2 levels. The Incan genesis shows this same feature, an ellipse joining or dividing 9 "stars" in groups of 4 and 5 with the Sun and Moon on either side of the ellipse. We have two stellar examples from both the old and the new world. And then we have Genesis, in the beginning God made Heaven and Earth. But before we get to the story about how and what Heaven and Earth are, we're told the Earth was formless and that the waters covered this formless Earth. "God" hovered over these waters, let there be light, and the firmament was placed amidst the waters. The waters below the firmament were gathered together into "Seas" and the Earth was revealed. People say this God created the universe, but he didn't create the waters, and he didn't even create this planet. The Earth is the word God gave to the dry land revealed by the receding waters. This jives with all the amerindian myths about God sending an animal down below the primordial waters to retrieve "mud" with which God spreads out to make the land.

Oh yeah, God did all this in 6 days, resting on the 7th day. Tiamat was the 6th planet from the deep of space, the Earth is now the 7th planet. Now consider this, a north African tribe believe Heaven and Earth were created in 4 days and God rested on the 5th day. Tiamat was the 4th planet from the Sun, and now the asteroid belt is in the 5th orbital slot from the Sun - this is where God rested (reached perihelion). The versions vary because they're looking at the solar system from different perspectives. Earth is the 3rd rock from the Sun but its the 7th planet from outside our system.

Until then, how in the world do you just assume they knew of events billions of years ago and planets they couldn't see?

They said so, and they backed it up with a description of events that is corroborated by damn near everything we've learned about the solar system.

As for the asteroid belt, we don't know where it came from for sure. One theory is that Jupiter's gravitational pull interrupted the formation of a planet in that orbit.

A theory that doesn't hold water for several reasons

1 If Jupiter's gravity prevented a planet forming 2.5 AU closer to the sun, how did the Galilean moons become planetary bodies? Think of Io, its the closest in of the 4 Galilean moons and its being pulled by Jupiter and the other moons so much we can see volcanoes refashioning the surface so fast impact craters dont last long, yet it is a planetary body.

2 Planetary formation proceeds with planets closer to the sun forming before the more distant planets due to the changing density of the nebula. How did Jupiter form before Tiamat? The theory requires us to believe Jupiter was already a massive planet before the asteroids could form a planet (how they formed into asteroids isn't addressed by this theory). Why are some asteroids large enough to be globes? Jupiter didn't prevent them from forming. Some asteroids show evidence of differentiation, that means they were once part of a larger object that had experienced planetary formation and evolution.

3 The exception to this "rule", if the planets formed after the sun ignited, the first planet to form should be far enough away from the sun to gather up the gas and dust blown outward by the solar wind thereby enriching its supply of planet building materials, especially water and ice. We know where this is, the asteroid belt. This is where comets approaching the Sun begin giving off their tail as ice melts from the solar wind.

[Ninot]

I think Asher is God?

[Berzerker]

Btw, according to one of the gnostic gospels, Jesus said not to worship the "Creator" for it is not something to be worshiped. Thats because the creation was a result of colliding celestial bodies. It appears Jesus knew about this, or at least knew something about the nature of this creator that would lend itself to Sitchin's theory.

[Aeson]

I just looked up Sitchin's theory...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Lancer
God doesn't need evidence as to his existance and the rest of us either have faith or don't. Separating those who have faith and those who don't may be the point of our existance.

Is that in the Bible or did you just make that up?

That's a six sided star. They were Jews?

[Berzerker]

Aeson, do you have something to refute his theory about our solar system? Kinda hard to defend a theory against

[Aeson]

I'm not going to waste time refuting what isn't even good science by bad science-fiction standards. But it was good for some laughs so thanks.

[Shrapnel12]

Might have an ounce of credibility if he was an actual scientist.

[Berzerker]

He's a scholar of ancient near east cultures, the scientists find the evidence supporting his theory. And I'm still waiting for the flood of scientific evidence refuting his interpretation of the Enuma Elish. The more we learn the more we confirm the Sumerian creation story, hell, most creation stories. Virtually all of them refer to the land appearing from below the waters. Well, Sitchin already knew about plate tectonics but how did all those ancient cultures know?

Aeson, dont move around too fast before you locate your spine

[Kataphraktoi]

Well, Sitchin already knew about plate tectonics but how did all those ancient cultures know?

Why are ancient cultures always presumed to be dumbasses? Its been known the earth was round since Ptolemy, for example. RE the image in the OP-the planets probably represent the major lights or objects visible, unless they had good telescopes they wouldnt know about saturn\pluto\etc

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Aeson, dont move around too fast before you locate your spine

Lifeforms capable of living on earth (genetically compatible with us to some extent since we were genetically engineered from them and homo erectus) who are living on a planet which at the outer reaches of it's orbit reaches ~440 astronomical units from the sun. That's one hell of a winter that lasts the better part of 3k years.

So they travel to earth to genetically engineer slaves (us) to mine gold for them so they can shield their atmosphere, because you know they need their atmosphere... and it's a really good thing they didn't need it until after they somehow developed interstellar transport and genetic engineering!

Of course they're mindless dolts since they think it's easier to come here, genetically engineer humans, and mine enough gold to shield their atmosphere, rather than to just come here and live somewhere hospitable.

The only interesting question this raises is how are you posting here without your brain Berzerker?

[Berzerker]

They knew about the outer planets because they were told about them in their creation story. Thats what they said anyway, so that leaves us pondering how they knew about a very plausible theory about the creation of the Earth (the dry land), this planet, and events in the solar system that have been confirmed by modern science.