Stupid laws, smug cops

[Wezil]

Hit by a Rogers Cable van on the passenger side behind the rear doors. It sent me spinning out of control into a chain link fence. No injuries to anyone thankfully, but I suspect my little red speed machine is no more.

I just got a call from the car hospital. My car will live. Surgery to be performed over the next 2 weeks.

[Flubber]

That law sounds like the old "reverse onus " attempts. If they prove X, then it is on you to disprove Y. I never understood why they bother. If you want to penalize people more for going 40 or more over the limit then just increase the penalties for THAT. Why get into trying to prove "racing"

If you want even more penalties for folks that are actually racing, then have them, in instanceas where you have some evidence of the racing

[Asher]

Originally posted by Flubber
That law sounds like the old "reverse onus " attempts. If they prove X, then it is on you to disprove Y. I never understood why they bother. If you want to penalize people more for going 40 or more over the limit then just increase the penalties for THAT. Why get into trying to prove "racing"

Politics, obvious. There have been some racing deaths on city streets. It's a hot button political issue, so this is a token response. Nevermind that it would not prevent racing, nor have anything to do with it.

A better solution is to actually have a public race track in Toronto. The city can even charge people for its use. If kids want to race, let them, but on the safety of a track and with an admission fee.

Even Calgary has one of those.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Flubber
That law sounds like the old "reverse onus " attempts. If they prove X, then it is on you to disprove Y. I never understood why they bother. If you want to penalize people more for going 40 or more over the limit then just increase the penalties for THAT. Why get into trying to prove "racing"

If you want even more penalties for folks that are actually racing, then have them, in instanceas where you have some evidence of the racing

I agree completely.

We already have laws against racing (s.172 of the HTA) with stiff penalties, and speeding 50 over is also pretty serious. If the government had concerns all they needed to do was address the penalty sections of existing statutes. This of course is not as sexy as holding news conferences and seizing cars.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Asher

A better solution is to actually have a public race track in Toronto. The city can even charge people for its use. If kids want to race, let them, but on the safety of a track and with an admission fee.

Even Calgary has one of those.

So the City of Toronto would have one more thing to lose money on? These folks can't even run golf courses at a profit.

Why does it need to be paid for with my tax money (or yours)? There are private tracks already in existence.

[Provost Harrison]

Remember the 11th commandment - thou shalt not get caught. But yeah, I think motorway speed limits are ridiculous - over here they are 70mph (110km/h) - very few people stick to it and I regularly do a good bit more than that (depending on conditions of course) - I think the law needs to be revised - Canada sounds even worse if it only has 100km/h...

[Wezil]

This is a large province/country. It takes forever to get anywhere at 100kph.

Keep in mind we are only talking about Hwy 401. This is part of the Trans-Canada Highway. Most other highways are actually 80kph.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Canada sounds even worse if it only has 100km/h...

WE have stretches where 110 km/h is allowed but it seems they slow it to 100 when there are lots of merging lanes such as in the city

[Wezil]

Yes, but you are talking about freedom loving Alberta aren't you? Not stuffy old Ontario.

[Tingkai]

From CBC:

Two brothers in their 20s have been charged with criminal negligence causing death after a seven-vehicle weekend crash that killed two women in Brampton, northwest of Toronto.

Steven Machado, 21, and his brother Brian, 27, both of Mississauga, were taken into custody. They were not injured in Saturday's crash. ...

Witnesses told police they saw two vehicles speeding in excess of 140 km/h before one of them went out of control just after noon on Saturday. ...

Police seized two vehicles, a badly damaged Audi and a BMW, under Ontario's new street racing laws, applied to drivers travelling more than 50 km/h over the speed limit. ...

Over the holiday weekend police reported they've seized 171 vehicles -- 324 overall since the new law came into effect a week ago.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2007/10/07/brampton-crash.html?ref=rss

Asher will no doubt say the speeding drivers aren't too blame.

I do have to laugh at the idiots who keep driving way over the speed limit even though this law has taken effect. If they're dumb enough to do that, they don't deserve to be allowed to drive.

The sad thing is that these women died because there always seem to be drivers who believe they have a divine right to drive at any speed and that speeding doesn't cause accidents.

[Tim_Augustus]

Originally posted by Wezil


Yes, that was why I said the safety aspects were "debatable". Proponents will give counter arguments. I'm not one of them.

The problem with photo radar, legally, was the fact the camera doesn't identify the driver, just the vehicle. A ticket would be sent to the owner but because identity of the driver could not be proven, demerit points were not issued (unlike a speed ticket issued by a real live cop). It was, to my mind, a blatant cash grab for this reason.

The solution's pretty simple - the registered owner of the vehicle takes the points unless a) he has a signed log-book entry from someone else for the time of the offence or b) he gets the driver to sign a stat dec taking responsibility for the offence or c) he reports the vehicle stolen if it was taken without consent. Why should the registered owner of a vehicle not have ultimate responsibility over who is authorised to drive it?

In my corner of Australia companies will even attract a drastically inflated fine if they can't or won't nominate a driver for their vehicles.

[DRoseDARs]

The speedometer on my '92 Exploder stops at 85mph (137kph).

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Asher

They're all the rage in Alberta. Photo radar and red light cameras have caused a fair share of accidents in the name of "road safety" -- people are cruising along and see a photo radar van, slam on the brakes --> rearended. Or people see a yellow light and slam on the brakes --> rearended.

An acquaintance of mine from back at school was rear-ended, he braked to avoid the redlight camera and he guy behind floored it. He's still got neck problems...

Out in California the politicians have been pushing Photo Radar as well. They claim it is to increase safety on the roads but just about every study done shows that red light cameras and photo radar actually cause the accident rates to go up in areas they are installed. The reason is simple, people see the red light camera or photo radar and immediately slam on their breaks which to often results in the car following them to crash into them.

Why then are the politicians still pushing for this at every opportunity? They just want the money these tickets raise.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Oerdin
They claim it is to increase safety on the roads but just about every study done shows that red light cameras and photo radar actually cause the accident rates to go up in areas they are installed.

A quick Google search suggest that red-light cameras tend to reduce overall number of accidents. The number of rear-enders increases slightly in some, but not all cases. Where increase occur, it is offset by reduction of right-angle crashes.

I suspect the same could be said for photo cameras aimed at speeders. While there may be more rear-enders caused by drivers following too close, this would be offset by a reduction of accidents cause by speeding drivers.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai

Police seized two vehicles, a badly damaged Audi and a BMW, under Ontario's new street racing laws, applied to drivers travelling more than 50 km/h over the speed limit. ...

Over the holiday weekend police reported they've seized 171 vehicles -- 324 overall since the new law came into effect a week ago.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2007/10/07/brampton-crash.html?ref=rss

Asher will no doubt say the speeding drivers aren't too blame.

I do have to laugh at the idiots who keep driving way over the speed limit even though this law has taken effect. If they're dumb enough to do that, they don't deserve to be allowed to drive.

The sad thing is that these women died because there always seem to be drivers who believe they have a divine right to drive at any speed and that speeding doesn't cause accidents.

These guys were ACTUALLY racing. They would've had their cars impounded, licenses suspended, and charges brought before the new "racing" law ever took place.

Racing on city streets is ridiculously stupid, but going 140 on the 401 is not. Please figure out the difference. As a side note, do not edit your sources like you have here. If you click the link, you'll see this wasn't done on a 400-series highway like what we've discussed here. These kids were not on the main freeways that were the topic of discussion, but dinky roads where 140 IS way too fast.

This also goes to show the new laws don't do **** to stop street racing.

The real solution is to give kids and outlet to race that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. The "solution" now is politiking and simply a cash cow for the province, it solves nothing and it certainly didn't save this woman's life.