Stupid laws, smug cops

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
A quick Google search suggest that red-light cameras tend to reduce overall number of accidents. The number of rear-enders increases slightly in some, but not all cases. Where increase occur, it is offset by reduction of right-angle crashes.

Here we see the results of that quick google search:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/03/AR2005100301844_pf.html

D.C. Red-Light Cameras Fail to Reduce Accidents

By Del Quentin Wilber and Derek Willis
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, October 4, 2005; A01

The District's red-light cameras have generated more than 500,000 violations and $32 million in fines over the past six years. City officials credit them with making busy roads safer.

But a Washington Post analysis of crash statistics shows that the number of accidents has gone up at intersections with the cameras. The increase is the same or worse than at traffic signals without the devices.

Three outside traffic specialists independently reviewed the data and said they were surprised by the results. Their conclusion: The cameras do not appear to be making any difference in preventing injuries or collisions.

"The data are very clear," said Dick Raub, a traffic consultant and a former senior researcher at Northwestern University's Center for Public Safety. "They are not performing any better than intersections without cameras."

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/04/430.asp

A 2007 Virginia Department of Transportation study found:
"The cameras were associated with an increase in total crashes... The aggregate EB results suggested that this increase was 29%... The cameras were associated with an increase in the frequency of injury crashes... The aggregate EB results suggested an 18% increase, although the point estimates for individual jurisdictions were substantially higher (59%, 79%, or 89% increases) or lower (6% increase or a 5% decrease)."

A 2006 Winnipeg, Canada city audit found:
"The graph shows an increase of 58% in the number of traffic collisions from 2003 to 2004.... Contrary to long-term expectations, the chart shows an increase in claims at each level of damage with the largest percentage increase appearing at the highest dollar value."

A 2005 Virginia DOT study found:
"The cameras are correlated with an increase in total crashes of 8% to 17%."

In 2005, The Washington Post found:
"The analysis shows that the number of crashes at locations with cameras more than doubled, from 365 collisions in 1998 to 755 last year. Injury and fatal crashes climbed 81 percent, from 144 such wrecks to 262. Broadside crashes, also known as right-angle or T-bone collisions, rose 30 percent, from 81 to 106 during that time frame."

A 2004 North Carolina A&T University study found:
"Our findings are more pessimistic, finding no change in angle accidents and large increases in rear-end crashes and many other types of crashes relative to other intersections."

A 2003 Ontario Ministry of Transportation study found:
"Compared to the average number of reported collisions occurring in the before period, the average yearly number of reported collisions increased 15.1 per cent in the after period."

A 1995 Australian Road Research Board study found:
"The results of this study suggest that the installation of the RLC at these sites did not provide any reduction in accidents, rather there has been increases in rear end and adjacent approaches accidents on a before and after basis and also by comparison with the changes in accidents at intersection signals."

[Patroklos]

The reason is simple, people see the red light camera or photo radar and immediately slam on their breaks which to often results in the car following them to crash into them.

The reason is they stopped when they saw the red light camera, not the red light. The problem is with the person.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos
The reason is they stopped when they saw the red light camera, not the red light. The problem is with the person.

Of course people stop at red lights. The problem is when you get to the "point of no return" where it turns yellow and you keep going. Most people would continue to just go through the yellow (and perhaps the split second of the red at the end), but with red light cameras, most people SLAM on the brakes stopping at an unsafe rate -- leading to additional accidents.

Studies have shown the best way to reduce collisions at intersections is to increase the duration of the yellow light by 1 second. But they can't make money that way...

[Asher]

Finally, someone gets it:

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/264830

Does street racing solution lie on the racetrack?

Justin Cabezas wasn't thinking about the consequences of street racing when he and another driver raced down a major street in Florida nearly 9 years ago.

Cabezas, 19, was thinking about what he and his girlfriend would do that weekend – and then he slammed his rented Dodge Intrepid into the side of a minivan, killing a mother and daughter as they drove away from a grocery store.

In the wake of Saturday's horrific crash on Hwy. 50, south of Bolton, in which two women died in an accident police have linked to racing, Cabezas suggests Canadian officials must take a different approach to curb the scourge of street racing.

"I don't believe that individuals think of the consequences" before accepting a racing challenge and pouring on the gas. "Sure we know it is dangerous, but?"

The answer is getting racers off the streets, he said, pointing to racetracks where amateur racers are welcome, a solution that's also helped solve a street racing problem in San Diego, Calif.

RaceLegal, organized specifically to get speeding kids off the street in San Diego, hosts about 24 events a year at the city's Qualcomm Stadium, drawing crowds of around 2,000 people and typically attract between 200 and 250 racers.

"The results have been overwhelming," said Lydia DeNecochea, RaceLegal's executive director, noting the key is to get police, courts and probation officers on the same page.

Since the Tampa crash, Cabezas and Bruce Murakami – who lost his loved ones in the accident – have been telling the story of how one careless moment changed both their lives forever.

"I didn't think of ramifications or negative possibilities," said Cabezas, now 28 and married.

"I carelessly didn't consider anything."

Photo radars, impoundments, and other enforcement will only go so far in dealing with the underlying issue, he said, referring to Canada's current efforts to stamp out street racing, that's why he's a proponent of the RaceLegal model.

RaceLegal was born when a professor at San Diego State University decided to act on the city's rapidly growing street-racing problem; with a grant from the California traffic safety office, a coalition of city and government officials, law enforcement offices and various courts came together to create the multi-pronged anti-street-racing initiative.

The result?

Over the past 5 years, the coalition of government officials, law enforcement officers and community members have managed to almost wipe out deaths and injuries resulting from illegal racing.

"It's really important to have everything in place so that illegal street racers are redirected to our sanctioned venues," DeNecochea said. "Then (the racers) can see that even doing it legally can be as exciting as the street."

Murakami, who still lives in Florida, said a similar initiative to RaceLegal is being adopted in Tampa.

"We did the same thing here about a year ago. We got an open track Saturday night, it cost $10 to race all night long," he said, adding that the first night drew around 150 cars and that within weeks nearly 300 were clamouring for spots.

"You've got to find them a place to go where they can do it in a safe venue.

"It's not going to cure the problem but it will bring the numbers down," said Murakami.

"And this way it's controlled. There are rules and safety inspections."

This combined with impoundment penalties and most of all education will help control street racing, Murakami and Cabezas both say.

After Murakami's wife, Cindy, and daughter Chelsea died Nov. 16, 1998, Murakami says he went numb with the excruciating pain. He couldn't stop thinking about bringing their killer, Cabezas, to justice.

But after seeing the young, scared-looking man in court one day, Murakami had a change of heart. He realized one, Cabezas had also been through agony over the guilt of killing two innocent people, and two, and the only way to move on was forgiveness.

Murakami had an idea: What if he and Cabezas toured the country talking to young people about the risks of dangerous driving?

Murakami pleaded with the judge for leniency. Cabezas could have faced 30 years in prison.

Instead, Cabezas was ordered to do 300 hours of community service with Murakami's organization, Safe Teen Driver, as well as two years of house arrest and eight years probation.

Murakami had launched the not-for-profit organization Safe Teen Driver – safeteendriver.org – in honour of Cindy and Chelsea.

Together, he and Cabezas have taken their cautionary story to thousands of high school students, as well as appearing on numerous television shows such as Oprah and Dateline NBC.

[Patroklos]

Studies have shown the best way to reduce collisions at intersections is to increase the duration of the yellow light by 1 second. But they can't make money that way...

Asher, you know damn well the reason people are having accidents now is they are not used to it. The used to be able to run right up on a stale green or cheat through the yellow knowing damn well they won't beat it.

In any case, is there any reason they can't increase the length of the yellow (like that will do anything but encourage more yellow cheating) and add cameras?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Asher, you know damn well the reason people are having accidents now is they are not used to it.

Red Light cameras have been in Calgary for a long time now, and those intersections still have highly elevated accident rates.

It has nothing to do with "being used to them". Red Light cameras practically eliminate the purpose of the yellow light, which is to allow people who hit the "point of no return" to continue through the light as it's changing. With Red Light cameras, people now treat yellow lights as red lights.

The facts speak for themselves. Accident rates are higher at red light camera intersections after the installations. You can try to rationalize and excuse that all you want, but it's ignoring the obvious.

In any case, is there any reason they can't increase the length of the yellow (like that will do anything but encourage more yellow cheating) and add cameras?

No, because the main reason people slam on the breaks is because of the absence of the green light. That means you have a very high chance of getting nailed by a red light camera, regardless on the duration of the yellow light.

As for your obsession with "yellow cheating" -- is that a main problem where you live? Having people still enter the intersection on a yellow light, as opposed to slamming on the brakes, is the safer alternative. As evidenced by the accident rates..

[Straybow]

That's why, in order to make them work, you have to put them at every intersection in the area. Swap out among dummy cameras if you don't have funding to make them all operational.

[Patroklos]

A yellow lights duration is supposed to be long enough for you to saftely transition an intersection after the point of no return while doing the posted limit.

If you can't do that then you are probably 1) going faster than the speed limit or 2) running through the yellow light even though you had time to stop.

Am I correct in thinking the red light camera takes the picture when the light turns red? If that is the case, there is no excuse for still being in the intersection when the light turns red if the yellow light is programed right. The only problem you could possibly have is with the yellow light.

Your just mad you might get caught cutting it too close. I routinely push the red/yellow light limits myself, but I know I'm doing it and don't pretend I am some persecuted class because I get caught.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos
A yellow lights duration is supposed to be long enough for you to saftely transition an intersection after the point of no return while doing the posted limit.

If you can't do that then you are probably 1) going faster than the speed limit or 2) running through the yellow light even though you had time to stop.

But can you be 100% certain your bumper won't be 1" in the intersection when it switches red? It's not an exact science, and people instinctively don't want anywhere near that intersection when it turns yellow.

Am I correct in thinking the red light camera takes the picture when the light turns red? If that is the case, there is no excuse for still being in the intersection when the light turns red if the yellow light is programed right. The only problem you could possibly have is with the yellow light.

Because sometimes you're still ever so slightly in the intersection the second it turns red. Then there's still the ~2 second delay before it's green. But you still get an expensive ticket. People wish to avoid this, so they slam on the brakes.

Your just mad you might get caught cutting it too close. I routinely push the red/yellow light limits myself, but I know I'm doing it and don't pretend I am some persecuted class because I get caught.

No one is whining about being persecuted. The facts show that they CAUSE accidents. More of them. Even fatal accidents went up after the installation.

Stop ignoring that point. I don't care how much of a precision driver you are, not everyone is and there's ample evidence that points to higher accident rate at lights with the red light cameras.

Personally, I've never had a ticket at one of these. But that's because I gun it the second it turns yellow now, rather than brake because -- surprise surprise -- it's safer.

[Patroklos]

But you still get an expensive ticket. People wish to avoid this, so they slam on the brakes.

All your concerns are addressed by your idea of adding a second or two to the yellow light, making it so long that you have to a complete idiot or purposely cutting it close to get caught with 1" of your ass out. And for those people the camera will be there to punish them for their stupidity/brashness.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos
All your concerns are addressed by your idea of adding a second or two to the yellow light, making it so long that you have to a complete idiot or purposely cutting it close to get caught with 1" of your ass out. And for those people the camera will be there to punish them for their stupidity/brashness.

In theory, sure. But the governments refuse to do that. Something about "increasing yellow cheaters". In reality, it's a cash cow.

[Patroklos]

Something about "increasing yellow cheaters".

Thats why you do both

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Tim_Augustus


The solution's pretty simple - the registered owner of the vehicle takes the points unless a) he has a signed log-book entry from someone else for the time of the offence or b) he gets the driver to sign a stat dec taking responsibility for the offence or c) he reports the vehicle stolen if it was taken without consent. Why should the registered owner of a vehicle not have ultimate responsibility over who is authorised to drive it?

In my corner of Australia companies will even attract a drastically inflated fine if they can't or won't nominate a driver for their vehicles.

It has been ruled a violation of the principles of fundamental justice. "Identity" is important and your solution calls for self-incrimination. I don't have to prove I wasn't the driver of a vehicle - the prosecution must prove I was.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Asher

These guys were ACTUALLY racing. They would've had their cars impounded, licenses suspended, and charges brought before the new "racing" law ever took place.

Indeed. They were charged under the existing Criminal Code provisions not the new HTA section.

[Dis]

50 km/hr seems really high. you don't need to be driving that much faster than the speed limit. It's fuel inneficient and puts more co2 into the air.