England destroyed by tornadoes

[Chemical Ollie]

I had two tornadoes in my garden within ten days in August. Both times, my garden was the only one in the neighburhood that was affected. Lots of crap to pick up and carry away before I could mow the lawn again.

[dannubis]

Nice Ollie !!!

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Lorizael
Civilization 0 my ass. Don't we get to count all the species we've driven to extinction? We're totally kicking nature's ass.

The thing is, depleting resources, causing mass extinctions, and derestifying, iraddicating, and poisining the world makes it harder for civilization in the long run. Yet nature will continue on long afterwards, regardless - unless civilization can figure out a way of imploding the universe.

It's a rigged game, civilization just can't win.

[Lorizael]

The universe wins out in the end, sure. But in the mean time, civilization produces intelligence and creativity - things which will be needed to make the universe do something useful before it dies.

[General Ludd]

Intelligence and creativity existed long before civilization ever did.

How do you think the whole thing got started?

[Lorizael]

Civilization produces more. More people, more connections, more possible abstract thoughts.

[Spec]

England will soon be submerged anyhow.



Spec.

[Cort Haus]

Nice garden you have there, Ollie. Looks like a sodding great park to me.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Lorizael
The universe wins out in the end, sure.

If you can call being dark, cold, and flat winning.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Lorizael
Civilization produces more. More people, more connections, more possible abstract thoughts.

That's with the assumption that only humans ("civilized" humans?) are capable of abstract thought. An assumption that is, rather conveniently, unique to the civilized.

[Lorizael]

No it's not. I simply have no ability to communicate with other creatures that may or may not have abstract thoughts. So their theoretical abstract thoughts are useless to me and thus can be discounted until such time as we figure out a way to communicate with our various slaves and food beasts.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Lorizael
No it's not. I simply have no ability to communicate with other creatures that may or may not have abstract thoughts. So their theoretical abstract thoughts are useless to me and thus can be discounted until such time as we figure out a way to communicate with our various slaves and food beasts.

Ah yes, the good ol' "I think therefore I am" philosophy of narcissism. All the world is false, except for what I can percieve. And I'll percieve what I want to. Your thoughts are useless unless they are first filtered through me.

[Lorizael]

No, not false - meaningless.

I can't provide absolute proof of abstract thought in other oganisms one way or the other right now, so I don't take those potential thoughts into consideration. How could I?

Anyhow, speaking of perceiving what we wish to perceive, I'm willing to bet you're probably rather guilty of that. I'm willing to bet you like animals and nature and all that other crap, and that this influences your belief that they have value of some sort.

Well I like all of that stuff, too, but I don't let it stop me from thinking rationally about them. And of course, by "thinking rationally about" I mean butchering and eating for my hedonistic pleasure.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Lorizael
No, not false - meaningless.

I can't provide absolute proof of abstract thought in other oganisms one way or the other right now, so I don't take those potential thoughts into consideration. How could I?

Anyhow, speaking of perceiving what we wish to perceive, I'm willing to bet you're probably rather guilty of that. I'm willing to bet you like animals and nature and all that other crap, and that this influences your belief that they have value of some sort.

Well I like all of that stuff, too, but I don't let it stop me from thinking rationally about them. And of course, by "thinking rationally about" I mean butchering and eating for my hedonistic pleasure.

There's not much rationality in over fishing, desertifying, poisoning, irradicating the world. Rational thought in regard to the environment would be to give back as much as you take - to eat what you need, and leave the rest. To ensure their well-being, even. So that you you, and future generations will continue to have something to eat. Taking more than you need to survive is not rational. Turning living things into money - an abstract concept that has no value in the real world is not rational. Attempting to enslave the universe to your personal will is not rational. It is megalomaniac and delusional.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by General Ludd
There's not much rationality in over fishing, desertifying, poisoning, irradicating the world. Rational thought in regard to the environment would be to give back as much as you take - to eat what you need, and leave the rest. To ensure their well-being, even. So that you you, and future generations will continue to have something to eat. Taking more than you need to survive is not rational. Turning living things into money - an abstract concept that has no value in the real world is not rational.

I never claimed to do or support these things. However, I am complicit to their existence, what with me being a somewhat functional citizen in the United States.

Attempting to enslave the universe to your personal will is not rational. It is megalomaniac and delusional.

Certainly, but it can be rational within the context of my delusions!