Iran leader denied WTC wreath request

[Wiglaf]

You people are really out of control. Of course there is some hypocrisy. But please stop worshiping this guy, it makes you look like a hippy loser Agathon.

[Arrian]

Agathon is a commie. Somehow I doubt he cares if he looks like a hippie to you.

-Arrian

[Wiglaf]

Communists can try to not look like losers.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Arrian
If he couldn't treat him with a modicum of respect, NO.

If a man is not worthy of basic civility, then don't make him your guest.

-Arrian

Why is this so hard for people to understand?

It's Basic Decency 101.

[Wiglaf]

It is interesting, why bother inviting someone if you are only going to jeer them and insult them. I think there was some benefit, eg they got him to declare there are no gays in his country, which is quite astonishing really. Talk about someone who needs to check his facts.

[Shrapnel12]

Originally posted by Ramo
The other side of the coin is that there's a severe amplifying effect byAmerican asshats. Denying his right to visit the WTC just makes us look like closed-minded, and is probably a legitimate free speech issue (security issues could have been worked out). Duncan Hunter (not exactly an irrelevant politico regardless of how pathetic his Pres bid is- Ranking Member of the House Armed Services Cmte, Chair before the election) has called for cutting off federal funding for Columbia. It's the oldest trick in the book - domestic hardliners using foreign hardliners as a convenient foil, and we fell for it. This pointless handwringing has only made Ahmedinejad stronger.

Do you think Ahmedinejad wanted to sincerely pay homage to the dead by this act?

If not, how would you feel if someone came along and desecrated the grave of one of your loved ones? Not just anyone either, but someone who had the same mindset of the people who killed your loved one and probably cheered them on?

How do you feel for instance about people protesting at the funerals of soldiers, something that should be a private time for mourning families?

Imagine the feeling of sitting in a courtroom during a murder trial for the man who killed your wife. The jury reads the verdict and declares him innocent despite all the evidence against him. As he walks by you a free man, he smirks and laughs in your face. Now I'm not trying to say the situations are the same, I'm just trying to describe the emotion. That's the same emotion that is generated by the thought of Ahmedinejad laying a wreath at the WTC. I guess a cold-hearted liberal would consider that close-minded but any decent human being would understand.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
You people are really out of control. Of course there is some hypocrisy. But please stop worshiping this guy, it makes you look like a hippy loser Agathon.

I don't worship him. I doubt that he has a good opinion of the Iranian Communist Party, if there is such a thing. His views are opposed to mine.

On the other hand, I have this thing about people being treated fairly, and Ahamadinejad has not been treated fairly with respect to the portrayal of his views in the western media. The endlessly recycled crap about him wanting Israel "wiped off the map" is the best example. Him being treated as a psychotic James Bond villain is another.

In particular, I have an endless contempt for the media spreading bull**** in order to legitimize war in the eyes of the public. We've seen that happen once already in the US in this century, with disastrous results. Shame on me for objecting to it happening again.

[Wezil]

Shrapnal (sorry Wiggy I got confused) -

I see it this way. if you forbid the visit, Mr. Denier wins (keep in mind the audience he is playing to - ie not Americans).

If you allow the visit, one of two things would occur:
1) he'd appear decent and respectful - no issue.
or
2) he'd be a dick, in which case all the folks that really hate him will have more ammo for their cause.

Now, I understand how 2) would inflame people (rightfully) but if convincing the US public that more needs to be done about Mr. Denier is what is needed this would make the task 100X easier.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Shrapnel12

Do you think Ahmedinejad wanted to sincerely pay homage to the dead by this act?

I think so. Iranians held candlelight vigils for 9/11 victims after the fact. Remember that Iran and the United States have a common enemy in Sunni Extremists, so this is not an unreasonable suggestion. Iranians have a visceral hatred of the US government, but as polls suggest, they don't feel the same way about US people.

Ask yourself whether it is really doing some good to suspect everyone of malevolent intentions.

If not, how would you feel if someone came along and desecrated the grave of one of your loved ones? Not just anyone either, but someone who had the same mindset of the people who killed your loved one and probably cheered them on?

Believe me, the Iranians do not have the same mindset as Al Qaeda or the Taliban. Iran is an attempt to create a modern Islamic Republic. In many ways it is quite a modern society. Most Iranians have no interest in the medieval lifestyle that people like Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden want for them.

How do you feel for instance about people protesting at the funerals of soldiers, something that should be a private time for mourning families?

This is slightly different, in that it's not a private memorial. Hell, I hate America, and I think that 9/11 was caused primarily by stupid US policies. That doesn't stop me feeling sorry for the victims (who were caught in the crossfire between two groups of warmongering loons), and that's true even if Ward Churchill was right, and we are all complicit in our nations' crimes.

Imagine the feeling of sitting in a courtroom during a murder trial for the man who killed your wife. The jury reads the verdict and declares him innocent despite all the evidence against him. As he walks by you a free man, he smirks and laughs in your face. Now I'm not trying to say the situations are the same, I'm just trying to describe the emotion. That's the same emotion that is generated by the thought of Ahmedinejad laying a wreath at the WTC. I guess a cold-hearted liberal would consider that close-minded but any decent human being would understand.

But how much of this is due to the portrayal of Ahamdinejad in the media. I can't recall him gloating over the 9/11 victims. I remember him speculating that there may have been collusion between Al Qaeda and elements of US intelligence services (hell, I still wonder how they pulled it off). That doesn't mean that he thinks that the victims deserved it, any more than the various 9/11 truthers think that they do.

There's no evidence that he thinks that the poor schmucks caught in those buildings deserved to die such a horrible death.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Agathon


I don't worship him. I doubt that he has a good opinion of the Iranian Communist Party, if there is such a thing. .

Youve seriously never heard of the Tudeh party?

[Wezil]

Is that like a toga party?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Wezil
Is that like a toga party?

Try googling it.

[Wiglaf]

Agathon, you are a sad apologist.

Iran is a state sponsor of terror (Hezbollah). Iranian agents are in Iraq and the Iranian government shields terror suspects from the US, some of whom the 9/11 Commission found may have had roles in the attacks on the country. Iran is even now harboring militants from al-Qaida (so shoot me if I cannot spell it still).

Citation, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jun25.html
(Not wikipedia by popular demand)

So you can understand why 9/11 families don't want this guy pissing on their relatives' graves, or if not you are soullless and insane.

[Ramo]

Do you think Ahmedinejad wanted to sincerely pay homage to the dead by this act?

I don't know. But in a free society, that's not particularly relevant.

If not, how would you feel if someone came along and desecrated the grave of one of your loved ones?

One thing about which I do know my feelings are analogies that make absolutely no sense. They're not favorable...

I guess a cold-hearted liberal would consider that close-minded but any decent human being would understand.

Yes, I'm a terrible human being.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



Youve seriously never heard of the Tudeh party?

IIRC they are defunct in Iran due to being made illegal. I don't know whether they are still a functional party within Iran.

edit: it looks like they're still going, but like the various Shah supporting factions, they have zero relevance within Iran.