God as the ultimate child abuser

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


In discussing Christian theology, I think that assumption is obvious? If you want to discuss the existence of God, that is a seperate discussion.

Jonathan miller

I was trying to discuss why the ability to sin is necessary to the existence of free will. From a rational standpoint, ignoring whether or not there is a God, I would say it's not necessary.

[Jon Miller]

You have a lot of Christian's, who believe that Jesus existed, but who still try to do things themselves. So yes, I think that people do have a hard time beleiving it is free.

I think, and I could be wrong here (as I can be wrong in a lot of what I have said), that things are sin because they are against God's law. So sin, and God's law, are linked. Just like God's identity, and His law are.

The choice of accepting Christ's gift or not is one of faith.. in the end. I think it is a choice we are capable of making, even while weak. The Bible does seem to say that if a person refuses Christ, that is the end the heart becomes hardened and it becomes impossible to make that choice.

Jonathan Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kontiki


I was trying to discuss why the ability to sin is necessary to the existence of free will. From a rational standpoint, ignoring whether or not there is a God, I would say it's not necessary.

I and Kid were talking in relation to Christianity. Defining sin outside of Christianity is a more nebulous quantity.

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kidicious
I have a problem with your claim that we have a choice what to believe. We do not. We can get more information if we have doubts about something, but we can not choose what to believe. I can't choose to believe that Bible anymore than I can believe GWB is the greatest president ever. It is impossible for me to believer either one.

I beleive that, at least once in our lives, God presents it in a form that we could beleive, if we choose to.

Jonathan Miller

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
You have a lot of Christian's, who believe that Jesus existed, but who still try to do things themselves. So yes, I think that people do have a hard time beleiving it is free.

I said exists, not existed. And I don't understand whay you mean by free? Why wouldn't they believe that it was free if they believed that he existed.

I think, and I could be wrong here (as I can be wrong in a lot of what I have said), that things are sin because they are against God's law. So sin, and God's law, are linked. Just like God's identity, and His law are.

You are probably wrong because you said that sin existed when God existed. It seems to me that the law can only exist when man existed. Why would a law exist before those who are to follow it exist. But then why would sin exist also before there is someone to commit it. This whole idea is Taoist in nature. Kind of interesting, and I haven't heard of it before.

The choice of accepting Christ's gift or not is one of faith.. in the end. I think it is a choice we are capable of making, even while weak. The Bible does seem to say that if a person refuses Christ, that is the end the heart becomes hardened and it becomes impossible to make that choice.

No. It's not possible. You would be more believable if you just called it a miracle, which is how other Christians have explained it to me.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


I beleive that, at least once in our lives, God presents it in a form that we could beleive, if we choose to.

Jonathan Miller

And why wouldn't we choose it? Because we don't believe it's free. That doesn' t make sense. We either believe or not, it's not a choice. If we can believe it we will believe it.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kidicious
No. It's not possible. You would be more believable if you just called it a miracle, which is how other Christians have explained it to me.

"I beleive that, at least once in our lives, God presents it in a form that we could beleive, if we choose to."

Jonathan Miller

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Jonathan Miller

Is this new?

[Jon Miller]

It's always been my name. I think I have signed it before. Not often, I admit.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller



"I beleive that, at least once in our lives, God presents it in a form that we could beleive, if we choose to."

Jonathan Miller

Yes, the problem that I see is that if this were true everyone would believe. Since everyone does not believe God must not do this. The only other possibility is that he picks and chooses who he wants to show the truth to.

[Shrapnel12]

Kid,
Give JM a break. He's merely explaining what he believes. You act like you're trying to convince him to give up his beliefs. In every post I've seen you post in, all you do is argue. There's disagreeing with someone and then there's just being obnoxious. Are you afraid he's right or something?

JM,
Do you believe in hell? What do you think hell is?

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Yes, the problem that I see is that if this were true everyone would believe. Since everyone does not believe God must not do this. The only other possibility is that he picks and chooses who he wants to show the truth to.

Well, calvinism was at one point very popular...

But I think that it is a choice, just like it was a choice for Adam (in the myth of Adam and Eve) to eat the fruit or not. He didn't have to eat the fruit. He wasn't given all the evidence, by either the serpent or God (he wasn't shown others who had eaten the fruit/etc). Similarly, we aren't given evidence (incontravertable) in our lives, we make a choice... in an absense of proof.

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Shrapnel12
JM,
Do you believe in hell? What do you think hell is?

I am fine with Kidicious. This is actually (much) less agressive then in an adventist forum I recently started posting in.

I don't beleive in the traditional concept of hell. I believe that hell is eternal in that it is final. But the physical existence of hell is limited in duration (maybe even very limited), and will be over and done with before the saved take up residence in the new heaven and new earth as described in the Bible.

Jon Miller

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Shrapnel12
Kid,
Give JM a break. He's merely explaining what he believes. You act like you're trying to convince him to give up his beliefs. In every post I've seen you post in, all you do is argue. There's disagreeing with someone and then there's just being obnoxious. Are you afraid he's right or something?

What do you think goes on at Poly? Of course I'm trying to get him to give up his beliefs. What's wrong with that? If successful I have made him smarter. And the same goes for him.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


Well, calvinism was at one point very popular...

But I think that it is a choice, just like it was a choice for Adam (in the myth of Adam and Eve) to eat the fruit or not. He didn't have to eat the fruit. He wasn't given all the evidence, by either the serpent or God (he wasn't shown others who had eaten the fruit/etc). Similarly, we aren't given evidence (incontravertable) in our lives, we make a choice... in an absense of proof.

Jon Miller

Choice is the most inappropriately used word in our language I think. Maybe it's the fault of our religions.

It's great to give people a choice when you don't know what they want or multiple people want different things. It doesn't make sense to talk about people wanting to have a choice of getting a million dollars or a punch in the mouth. That doesn't make sense. Please tell me you can see that.