God as the ultimate child abuser

[Kidlicious]

Maybe I don't understand that sin makes you weak and then you are saved because of your own choices. You sinned (bad choices right?) and then because of Jesus I didn't sin, but somehow that's my choice.

[Jon Miller]

The Bible, if it is inspired, should be read in the whole. In Isaiah we have this:

12"How(A) you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star,(B) son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!
13You said in your heart,
(C) 'I will ascend to heaven;
above the stars of God
(D) I will set my throne on high;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
in the far reaches of the north;[a]
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.'
15(E) But you are brought down to Sheol,
to the far reaches of the pit.

God's existence implies the possibility that sin existed... I didn't say that God's existence caused sin to exist. (or didn't mean to)

The Bible does say that those who are saved will get honor... but also that they will give honor to God.

I don't beleive that Eve's part is the most crucial part of the myth, I mean.. she just is part of the fall (she falls herself). The crucial part of the myth is the fall itself.

The serpent is allowed to tempt Eve because how much of a real choice would it be for you to provide your arguments, and stop your opponents from giving any argument, when offering a choice to someone?

The connection is you keep picking one part of the Bible, and arguing a works based theology based on it. Which, if you read the whole Christian Bible, is wrong, as it is faith based, not works based.

The only way we can have triumph over sin/the devil is to take Christ's triumph, His gift. We give Him our sins, our losses, our struggles, and our burdens, and He gives us victory.

I did respond in light of what Agathon posted at least a bit.

Laying it out again:

Part of God's identity is that He is just. He gave a direction in the myth of Adam (or myth of Adam and Eve if you wish), that they weren't to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed, signifying that they didn't think that God's direction was just or correct... that they thought He was wrong. It was this disobediance which was sin. It wasn't a sin just following the serpent's direction. If the serpent had said... climb the tree, then if they climbed the tree.. that would not be a sin. The serpent tempted, the serpent wasn't the cause of the possibility of sin.

JM

[Shrapnel12]

JM,

You say that Jesus died so we didn't have to, but he didn't die. He rose and joined his Father in heaven, just like we are supposed to do when we "die". Also, I think death as is being referred here needs to be explained. Are we talking dead as an eternal sleep, oblivion of the soul, or going to hell? Death is no big deal if your talking about the soul living on and going to a better place, and Jesus certainly didn't go to hell to keep us from going there.

Agathon,
Just because you think something is irrational, doesn't make it so. What's so rational about what you believe? So if you don't understand something, it can't be true? People see things that appear supernatural all the time and they are not making it up, but science can't explain it either. It's possible that a man could walk on water and there is a perfectly logical explanation. Just because you don't know of it, doesn't make it fantasy. You're awfully close minded for "rational" thinking person.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Maybe I don't understand that sin makes you weak and then you are saved because of your own choices. You sinned (bad choices right?) and then because of Jesus I didn't sin, but somehow that's my choice.

Accepting Christ's gift takes away your sin, as Christ takes it upon Himself.. and it is nailed to the cross with Him. His righteousness covers you.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Shrapnel12
JM,

You say that Jesus died so we didn't have to, but he didn't die. He rose and joined his Father in heaven, just like we are supposed to do when we "die". Also, I think death as is being referred here needs to be explained. Are we talking dead as an eternal sleep, oblivion of the soul, or going to hell? Death is no big deal if your talking about the soul living on and going to a better place, and Jesus certainly didn't go to hell to keep us from going there.

Agathon,
Just because you think something is irrational, doesn't make it so. What's so rational about what you believe? So if you don't understand something, it can't be true? People see things that appear supernatural all the time and they are not making it up, but science can't explain it either. It's possible that a man could walk on water and there is a perfectly logical explanation. Just because you don't know of it, doesn't make it fantasy. You're awfully close minded for "rational" thinking person.

Jesus died, but because He was God, He rose again on the third day.

It is His death, and resurrection (showing that He triumphed over sin, as He was sinless), which enables Him to die for us.

Also, I am an SDA. And while I don't agree with some doctrines, I definitely do agree with conditional immortality (I think that is what it is called).

Basically, I think that when you are dead, you are ended... eternal sleep might be a good way to put it. Jesus was God (I don't follow the old adventist doctrine of semi-arrianism, and it is no longer official also), and as such He could take His life up again. And did, after 3 days in the grave.

Jonathan Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Well, I'm too weak and stupid from my life of sin. What choice to I have? If I'm a 90 pound weakling can I choose to pick up a 300 lb barbell?

It's easy to accept a free gift. Well, as easy a (Real) choice as exists.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
The Bible, if it is inspired, should be read in the whole. In Isaiah we have this:

What if we read it, and the more we read it the less we believe? Hell, the more I sin the more I believe in the Bible, but the more I read it the less I believe. The more I talk to Christians still less I believe. It's all utter crap. The harder we look at it the more we see that.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


It's easy to accept a free gift. Well, as easy a (Real) choice as exists.

JM

If it's so easy why don't people do it. We see how people live, and they are very selfcentered. If you offer them a gift they take it. So why don't they take Jesus' gift?

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
How important is the ability to fly or grow taller? How much more important is the ability seperate yourself from God.

Circular logic alert. If I don't assume God exists, it's not particularly important.

If you had a child, but always held on to them and never let them make their own choices, are you allowing that child choices or not?

Kind of my point. If you never allowed them to make choices, then of course you're not allowing choice, by definition. However, if you only remove a couple of choices, there's still lots left to be made.

So while God allows disobediance (or choices not in line with His), they aren't beneficial, they aren't a needed part of the path, the possibility, however, is required for us to have any (real) choice at all.

So we're back to the circular logic again? The ability to sin is critical because I assume from my religion that it's critical?

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kidicious

What if we read it, and the more we read it the less we believe? Hell, the more I sin the more I believe in the Bible, but the more I read it the less I believe. The more I talk to Christians still less I believe. It's all utter crap. The harder we look at it the more we see that.

The law (or what defines sin) is what convicts us. It tells us our state, but it is also what kills us.

The Bible is old, it's language and symbolism is hard to understand. I, and other's, don't always represent the Bible well. Christians often don't act very Christian. I can definitely see your complaint... it would be nice if there was a new Paul or something. But there isn't, and I don't think there will be, so we have to work with what we have.

People have a hard time beleiving a gift is free. They want to look within also (the selfcentered aspect), rather then without. It does take faith... which can be difficult, and is easily forgotten. Additionally, we Christians do a poor job of presenting it.

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kontiki


Circular logic alert. If I don't assume God exists, it's not particularly important.

I have not been arguing that God exists. I think that you are mistaking my discussion with Kidicious.

JM

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


I have not been arguing that God exists. I think that you are mistaking my discussion with Kidicious.

JM

No, but your response makes that assumption, or rather makes it obvious that you make that assumption.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kontiki


No, but your response makes that assumption, or rather makes it obvious that you make that assumption.

In discussing Christian theology, I think that assumption is obvious? If you want to discuss the existence of God, that is a seperate discussion.

Jonathan miller

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
The law (or what defines sin) is what convicts us. It tells us our state, but it is also what kills us.

That doesn't agree with you claim that sin seperates us from God. Does sin kill us or does the law kill us?

The Bible is old, it's language and symbolism is hard to understand. I, and other's, don't always represent the Bible well. Christians often don't act very Christian. I can definitely see your complaint... it would be nice if there was a new Paul or something. But there isn't, and I don't think there will be, so we have to work with what we have.

So how are we suppose to make the right choice if we are weak?

People have a hard time beleiving a gift is free.

You think they expect a hidden charge? That's not the problem. The problem is that it's not reasonable to think that Jesus exists. If people knew that he existed I'm sure they would run to claim their free gift.

[Kidlicious]

I have a problem with your claim that we have a choice what to believe. We do not. We can get more information if we have doubts about something, but we can not choose what to believe. I can't choose to believe that Bible anymore than I can believe GWB is the greatest president ever. It is impossible for me to believer either one.