God as the ultimate child abuser

[Last Conformist]

Thanks.

So, either there is no choice, or one of the alternatives is exceedingly hard to chose. In the former case, how is this any different wrt free will than if God made sure no-one sinned? In the later, what meaning does a choice have that nobody finds out how to choose?

[Jon Miller]

I Think that it is not our purpose to be perfect (to be sinless). That is not why were have choices...

Since that isn't why we are here, then the fact that no human suceeds at living sinless isn't important as far as chioces are concerned.

JM
(note that some Christians are semi-arian and don't think that God and Christ were the same, some even think Christ was human, in which case things are changed a bit)

[Kidlicious]

You know. Where is all this crap that you Christians spout out. I've read the Bible, and I don't know where it is in there. I've read the story of Adam, and it seems reasonable to me that Adam had the choice not to sin and that that was a real possibility.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kidicious
You know. Where is all this crap that you Christians spout out. I've read the Bible, and I don't know where it is in there. I've read the story of Adam, and it seems reasonable to me that Adam had the choice not to sin and that that was a real possibility.

Umm, that is what I have been saying?

JM

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


Umm, that is what I have been saying?

JM

What, that God made us sinners after the original sin? That, he made us weak or something so that now it's not possible for us not to sin?

[Jon Miller]

17And to Adam he said,

"Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
(R) of which I commanded you,
'You shall not eat of it,'
(S) cursed is the ground because of you;
(T) in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
(U) for you are dust,
and(V) to dust you shall return."

We (mankind) made ourselves weak. In the myth of Adam, death is the result of sin.. and a state that we all share.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
We (mankind) made ourselves weak. In the myth of Adam, death is the result of sin.. and a state that we all share.

JM

Ok, why do you believe the story of Adam is a myth. It's obviously not stated in the Bible that it's a myth.

And you say "we" made ourselves weak. What do you mean by that? How does Adam make himself weak? I see that he is punished, but I don't see that he is weaker. He is made to die, sure, that is a weakness, but that's not the same thing as saying that he is made weaker to resist sin. Was Adam made weaker to resist sin? Where does it say that?

[Jon Miller]

Wherever did I say myth meant not true (either literally or symbolically)? I am using myth in the theological context, not the colloqual context.

With the coming of sin, Adam needed to be clothed, he became subject to death, he had to do harsh labor, and suffered pain/etc. He certainly sounds weaker.

Now read some of the rest of the Bible, it goes more into detail about Adam. Although it is (from a Christian perspective) most explicit in the New Testament. (read Paul)

JM

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
With the coming of sin, Adam needed to be clothed, he became subject to death, he had to do harsh labor, and suffered pain/etc. He certainly sounds weaker.

Let me ask you this. What is the purpose of the punishment, from God's perspective. It must of some constructive purpose, unless God has some serious issues. Isn't it to make us better able to resist sin? That certainly seems logical. On what basis do you claim it to be the opposite?

[Jon Miller]

It is a result of no longer being close to God. Of a seperation.

The clothing was before God even talked to Adam, the rest is God saying what was going to happen...

There is being removed from the garden, that is a physical disconnect to reflect the identity disconnect.

To best put it, in the myth of Adam, sin didn't need to be resisted... after the fall, resisting became necessary.

JM

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I Think that it is not our purpose to be perfect (to be sinless). That is not why were have choices...

Since that isn't why we are here, then the fact that no human suceeds at living sinless isn't important as far as chioces are concerned.

Why, then, is it important that we have the option to be sinful? That, as you may recall, is where this tangent started.

(note that some Christians are semi-arian and don't think that God and Christ were the same, some even think Christ was human, in which case things are changed a bit)

Well yes, but in the interests of keeping the discussion manageable, I'd like to stick to mainstream Christian beliefs, plus your own to the extent they differ.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
To best put it, in the myth of Adam, sin didn't need to be resisted... after the fall, resisting became necessary.

JM

mkay, that still doesn't explain why we are weaker because of sin. If I have to lift weight then I become stronger. Shouldn't I become stronger from resisting sin. In fact, I'm sure I could find passages to support that. I know they are there.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I Think that it is not our purpose to be perfect (to be sinless). That is not why were have choices...

Since that isn't why we are here, then the fact that no human suceeds at living sinless isn't important as far as chioces are concerned.

Why, then, is it important that we have the option to be sinful? That, as you may recall, is where this tangent started.

(note that some Christians are semi-arian and don't think that God and Christ were the same, some even think Christ was human, in which case things are changed a bit)

Well yes, but in the interests of keeping the discussion manageable, I'd like to stick to mainstream Christian beliefs, plus your own to the extent they differ.

SDAism was semi-arrian in the past, and I might still have influences from that. That is why I included that parenthesis. I am trinitarrian though, like most adventists have been for 50ish years.

Having the choice to reject (or accept) God seems like the most important choice that exists, doesn't it? Just because that is not the reason we exist, doesn't mean that it isn't the most fundamental choice.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kidicious


mkay, that still doesn't explain why we are weaker because of sin. If I have to lift weight then I become stronger. Shouldn't I become stronger from resisting sin. In fact, I'm sure I could find passages to support that. I know they are there.

There are some theologians who think that sin is a good thing, and that the end result of humanity will be better then what it was to begin with.

Resisting sin is good, it is giving into sin which makes us weaker...

JM

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
There are some theologians who think that sin is a good thing, and that the end result of humanity will be better then what it was to begin with.

If sin isn't a good thing then why did God create it? That sounds almost like it could be Satanism, although I don't really know that much about Satanism.

Resisting sin is good, it is giving into sin which makes us weaker...

JM

Weaker means seperated from God? So if we resist sin we will be stronger and closer to God? What if I resist sin without Gods help? Can I get stronger and stronger, and then be punished as a very strong man.