Apple brings back the PC jr keyboard to life (or the new iMac thread)

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Agathon
Most consumers don't care. Most will buy the computer in their price range as long as it "burns" DVDs or "does photos".

Most people don't think too hard about the computer they buy. That's why it is better to sell computers that arent crippled. The only reason that doesn't happen is that companies like Dell are engaged in price wars at the low end. Thus they shave functionality from their products in order to satisfy the people who don't think about what they buy, and who will be disappointed later.

No, most consumers will care. It kind of why Macs have such a low marketshare.

My parents, computer illiterate as they are, realize they don't need to buy a new computer that comes with a monitor because the one they bought a year or so back works just fine. And, also, I think they like the fact that they CAN buy a monitor without having to get a new computer.

edit: which, btw, is why I liked the idea of the Mac Mini. I may still get one at one point in time, but if was to get a desktop Mac, that'd be the one. I'm not ready to give up on my LG 20' Widescreen monitor or Logitech Z-4 speakers yet... I just bought them within the last year, ffs!

[Nostromo]

Ars Technica review:

http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/aluminum-and-glass-a-review-of-the-new-imac.ars

Pros

* Speed
* Solid build quality
* Built-in 802.11n support
* Solid industrial design, sleek-looking
* Decent value
* 1GB of RAM with a free slot
* Bright, vibrant display

Cons

* Keyboard takes some getting used to; not everyone will like it
* Mandatory glossy display
* Wireless performance suffers in aluminum case
* Lack of expandability aside from memory
* Graphics card could have been better
* Poor viewing angle vs. previous model

[thesilentone]

I miss asher anyway but agathon is even more annoying than I remember. You need to cut down on the kool-aid aggie.

[snoopy369]

Honestly, I think the main issue here (in this thread) is similar to the atheism/religion issue elsewhere.

You have the religious nuts [mac nuts], who are in the minority on this forum and are considered whackos by many of the forumites.

On the other hand you have the atheists [anti-mac], who are much more numerous and therefore consider themselves to be the majority.

But, as my GF says... atheists are religious nuts themselves, just of the "no" god. In the same way, this thread is largely Mac nuts (Agathon) versus anti-Mac nuts (nikolai, etc.). What y'all don't realize is you're both equally extreme in your own way. The fact that there are a lot of anti-mac nuts on this board doesn't make that viewpoint any less of an extreme view...

Overall, the iMac is a computer that is appropriate for some people and not for others. The set of "not" largely includes computer geeks and people who need a lot of performance, as well as people who feel comfortable customizing their computers. Oddly enough that takes away the majority of the users of this forum

However I would remind you that there are millions - hundreds of millions - of people who don't feel comfortable customizing their computer, even so far as using dell's website, because they're overwhelmed by the decisions and feel that they'll make the wrong decisions [even when there's no wrong answer for most of them]. These people need a prebuilt computer that is straightforward, works straight out of the box, and still is a reasonable value.

Again like I said above... Walk into best buy. Find me a computer that combines the quality of Apple parts [which is unarguably very high] with the price/performance of the iMac, in a prebuilt, walk home with it computer.

You won't be able to, at least not at regular price... This is why the iMac is a successful device, and one of apple's better decisions. I don't know if this one will be successful, but I suspect it will be.

[Wiglaf]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

You've taken Dell's cheapest and nastiest range of computer, which has the cheapest components (like the slower optical drive) and the worst form factor (see pic which is of a slightly better model).

You can upgrade an optical drive for under $50. So you're admitting with Apple, you're just paying for the exterior of the computer?

I wish this lame debate would stop repeating itself on every internet forum in existence twenty times a day.

Macs are expensive. People like them because they look sexy and don't get as many viruses. They have money and most of them like the look and feel of Apple products. That is all. Not everyone games. In fact few people do. I don't see why anyone here thinks this is a novel or interesting argument.

[Verto]

As far as the iMac goes, I own a 17'' G5 I bought in 2005. In that time, I have had ONE kernel panic (best described as a Mac BSOD, I suppose) that was caused by my RAM not being put all the way back in when I installed extra RAM. Other than that, I have had a perfect experience. I don't regret buying a Mac at all. I do run into the occasional annoyance of not being able to run software that is locked up behind MS/Windows Media Player bullsh*t, but none have been that important. (Of course, this is not a problem with the Intel Macs). Without having to do anything on my part, my iMac is running as fast as it was when I first bought it, and I'm confident I'll be able to say the same thing 2+ years from now. This is simply not true with Windows XP (at least not for the 'average' user).

Whenever I visit my parents, I am always frustrated when using their computers (Dell and Toshiba laptops). Let me preface this by saying my mom knows only enough about a computer to check email, browse the Web, and use Yahoo Messenger. Obviously people on 'Poly will have taken all the additional steps necessary to secure and maintain their PC. But I think you guys take for granted that 1.) everyone knows how to do this and 2.) this is just a part of using a computer. My mom knows enough to prevent getting a virus (in most cases) but doesn't know about Spybot, Adware, etc. She doesn't know about Mozilla Firefox (although I've installed these for here) or other 3rd party software. In a case like this, she really should have bought a Mac.

When I bought my iMac, I knew I'd spend more money than if I had built another PC, and lose the ability to keep my monitor and upgrade my comp later. For what I wanted and needed, these were acceptable for me. Wiglaf is right when he says people like Macs because they look sexy. I'm sure lots of people only buy Macs because of their coolness factor, or whatever you want to call it. But that doesn't mean there aren't other valid reasons people have for owning a Mac. And who gives a f*ck if it costs more money? If I decide that spending a $100 or $200 or $6000 dollars extra to get a Mac is worth it, what's the big deal?

No, most consumers will care. It kind of why Macs have such a low marketshare.

There are a huge number of consumers who avoid buying a Mac because they look no further than the price tag. These of course are the same people who would rather spend 500$ on a Dell, than 700$ on a Mac Mini, and then in 5 months ***** and moan about how horrible and sluggish their computer is, and then call their tech friend to fix it for them. Or they'll just buy another 500$ Dell in 2 years.

Anyway, sorry for the disjointed post. Red Dwarf distracted me while I carried out my Sacred Duty to the Order of Jobs and defending Apple from the mongrel dogs.

[Wiglaf]

http://www.apple.com/imac/

It is pretty clear that this thing is a damn good looking computer that makes a lot of common tasks easy. Like Verto said, it is also going to last longer than an unprotected XP box.

It is not a quad core or that good for 3D gaming. Not everyone gives a flying **** about that. If my parents wanted a new computer, and it was between some $700 Dell or a $1100 iMac sexmachine, it's no contest. Wouldn't have to worry as much about needing a new one in 2 years...

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

No, most consumers will care. It kind of why Macs have such a low marketshare.

That's insane and completely mistaken, once again. Apple is, I think the 4th (or perhaps the 3rd) largest computer manufacturer in the USA.

Apple sells computers for specific markets: home use, education, "creative professionals", and recently for people who want a UNIX like desktop, but who don't want the (relative) hassle of Linux.

They don't sell computers aimed at gamers or the corporate world. They certainly don't sell the cheap computers used for cash desks, or the sub $500 budget consumer machines. Yet Apple as a company is worth about the same as Hewlett Packard, and worth about twice as much as Dell.

Marketshare data is misleading in that Apple simply doesn't offer products across the whole category. Companies like HP and Dell do. It's unsurprising that you have more customers when you have a larger potential customer base.

My parents, computer illiterate as they are, realize they don't need to buy a new computer that comes with a monitor because the one they bought a year or so back works just fine. And, also, I think they like the fact that they CAN buy a monitor without having to get a new computer.

How many people buy a new monitor every year? How many ordinary consumers buy a new monitor for an old computer? Very few. Out of all the people I know, I can think of one case where someone bought a new monitor for an old machine. Most people will just buy a new machine. Given that fact, what is the point of having to put up with a huge separate tower, when you can have an all in one that takes up the same amount of space as a monitor?

edit: which, btw, is why I liked the idea of the Mac Mini. I may still get one at one point in time, but if was to get a desktop Mac, that'd be the one. I'm not ready to give up on my LG 20' Widescreen monitor or Logitech Z-4 speakers yet... I just bought them within the last year, ffs!

The low end mac mini isn't that great, and for just $400 more, you can get the entry level iMac, which is a much better machine. And you could plug your LG monitor into it and have two screens.

Look, macs aren't for everyone. In particular, they aren't for gamers, which is a majority of people who post here. You find me a post where I've said that everyone should use one. On the other hand, if you are primarily a digital media enthusiast, then you're an idiot if you don't buy a mac.

As for gaming. I don't see the point in spending $1500 on a good gaming rig when you can spend under a third of that on a console (even Microsoft's console, which is pretty decent value for money), which you can use on your huge television screen.

But that doesn't mean that they aren't good computers, or that they are horrendously more expensive than comparable machines from other name brand manufacturers. Apple's workstations, for example, are among the best priced on the market from a major manufacturer. They are certainly cheaper than the equivalents from Dell and HP, as was proven by me, on this site, last week.

[Kuciwalker]

That's insane and completely mistaken, once again. Apple is, I think the 4th (or perhaps the 3rd) largest computer manufacturer in the USA.

That's rather a rather silly way of describing it.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

That's insane and completely mistaken, once again. Apple is, I think the 4th (or perhaps the 3rd) largest computer manufacturer in the USA.

That's rather a rather silly way of describing it.

How so? Apple's competitors are companies like Dell, Hewlett Packard, Gateway and Sony.

[Kuciwalker]

No one chooses between Dell or Apple. People choose between Apple and all PC vendors, then amongst the PC vendors.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Agathon
You might want to read the rest of the thread. The Apple machines turned out to be cheaper. People were "forgetting" to put in the equivalent power supply on the competing machines. The truth is that Dell's and HP's workstations are pretty expensive.

To be fair Agathon:

1) Comparing just one type of workstation is not exactly representative of the full spectrum of personal computers available.

2) Comparing just one or two (of coincidentally some of the most expensive) PC brands is also not exactly fair. Dell + HP have slightly less than 1/3 of the total PC market share. That's nearly 7 out of 10 PCs in the world that have different (probably lower) prices.


That said, if I have time tomorrow I might go and compare iMac vs Dell equivalents...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
No one chooses between Dell or Apple. People choose between Apple and all PC vendors, then amongst the PC vendors.

Bingo. Young Kuciwalker is wise beyond his years (or rather has figured out the common sense ). Saying Apple is the 4th largest computer manufacturer is absolutely silly in that context. People are choose PC or Mac, and are perfectly willing to buy any PC (mainly based on price) because they realize that the parts are interchangable. Not so with a Mac, which has a completely different OS.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
No one chooses between Dell or Apple. People choose between Apple and all PC vendors, then amongst the PC vendors.

Most people just choose a computer.

Your problem, and the problem of almost everyone on this board is that you have no conception of how regular people view computers. Many people who own a computer aren't even aware that there is such a thing as an operting system (I guess you won't believe that, but a survey this week demonstrated that 30-40% of Xbox 360 and PS3 owners were unaware of key features, including Blu Ray).

The vast majority of people view computers as mere appliances. But that is a whole other topic.

But given the ample failure of Poly's trolls to demonstrate that Apple is "really expensive" for a second week in a row, I'm going to notch this one as another win.

I guess there'll be nothing for another couple of months, until Apple releases its new OS and completes the humiliation of Vista.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Your problem, and the problem of almost everyone on this board is that you have no conception of how regular people view computers.

Ah yes.. the famous Mac user condescension. Cause we don't have parents or friends who are not computer savvy (or even literate).

And the claiming of victory is also cute. But go along on the Mac user fantasy that they've pwned Windows while clinging to a barely 5% marketshare (and I guess I'll also claim victory... Hell, why not? It's the thing to do apparently).