About Steve Jobs and his fear of buttons

[Master Zen]

So now Apple has a monopoly on naming colors...

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Master Zen


It's a friggin computer Agathon, not a car nor is it an interior decorating paint shop. Then again, considering that Macs make good furniture at best, maybe it is...

* Master Zen thinks 99% of people who bought "graphite" iMacs or iBooks told the guy in the store "Give me the black one".

It's not black. If you knew anything, you would know that Graphite has been an interface colour scheme on Macs for years. When Apple sells a black computer, they call it "black". When they sell one in grey plastic they call it "graphite".

So basically, it doesn't matter the Mac Pro is underpowered in RAM since most people will upgrade ("will" is your word btw). Yet you argue that most people don't upgrade. So the "can" argument is irrelevant. Thus, under your logic, since most people don't upgrade regardless if they can, then 1 GB is too little.

You are so easy to waste it isn't funny. You need to buy a logic book.

(1) Most people never upgrade their computers.

(2) Most people do not buy professional quality workstations.

(3) Most people who buy professional quality workstations upgrade the RAM (and a lot will upgrade other stuff)

You see... it's easy when you understand the difference between "most computer buyers" and the relatively smaller number of people who buy professional workstations.

Why you didn't understand this is beyond me. You need help.

So in your mind the fact that OSX is better than Vista makes the price differential of a Mac justifiable. As for "standard" software, that's BS. All software which is "included" is reflected in the price one way or another. Nothing is ever free.

There is no price differential. In general, the Mac Pro comes out cheaper when you don't engage in dishonest speccing. You also cannot buy a Dell that is as powerful as the Mac Pro. At least I can't seem to find the option for 8 cores at 3.0 Ghz.

And you can run Vista on a Mac Pro if you want to. It's perfectly compatible.

You are right, all software is included in the base price... for a mac. With Dell you have to go through and add stuff, like anti-virus software (which the mac doesn't need) and the various multimedia bundles that Dell allows. Note also that the base price Dell 690 only has an 80GB hard drive. It will cost you another 80 bucks to get the same drive as the Mac Pro has.

YOU are the one who said "The Mac Pro is ridiculously overpowered for gaming". Now do me a favor and justify that statement when it only has 1 GB of RAM and a GeForce 7300. That's all I'm asking although it seemingly is too much for you.

It might help if you thought about what you are going to type before you typed it.

The Mac Pro is a workstation, primarily designed for things like Final Cut Studio. It needs a lot of horsepower to perform those tasks quickly and efficiently. You can put up to 16GB of RAM in one of the 8 core machines to this end.

You can also put a better graphics card in it and game if you want to, but what would be the point? You would be better off buying one of Dell's gaming PCs (that's why Dell sells gaming PCs, which have Core 2's, not Xeons)

I'll use an analogy. A sports car, which is designed for racing. To this end it has a small efficient engine and great aerodynamics. It's the auto equivalent of a gaming rig with a high speed processor and graphics card. Compare that with a big rig truck which is designed to haul incredibly heavy loads, and doesn't need the aerodynamics.

Now ask yourself why someone would buy a truck and attempt to use it for racing, when you could buy a cheaper sports car?

The Mac Pro is designed to run Apple's high end pro apps (and those of other companies like Adobe). It's completely inappropriate for gaming. Of course you can soup it up into a gaming machine if you want, and Apple will happily take your money, but you're an idiot if you do that, since you could buy a cheaper machine designed for high performance gaming from another manufacturer.

So now you're strawman-ing 16 GB of RAM... right. Before you strawman yourself even more I'd like to remind you that the Mac Pro we've been talking about all along is a 4 core. How convenient of you to up the ante to suit your ever more ridiculous argument.

I don't see how it matters. The Mac Pro is a workstation, not a gaming machine. It's playing a different sport. Why you think it would somehow be worth spending an absolute fortune on a workstation to play games on is beyond me. You are buying far too much processor power. You would be better off buying a top of the line Core 2 system and a super awesome video card.

And yes, I know a lot of people who 4 core for gaming. Nothing unreasonable for that.

Well, they are your friends, and that says a lot. Even Dell does not sell Xeon systems for gaming (Again, I can't find one). The Xeon is designed for workstations and servers.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Master Zen
So now Apple has a monopoly on naming colors...

No. Apple has a monopoly on naming colours for Apple products. Oddly enough, they call grey "graphite" and they call black "black". They are different colours.

How that's any different from a car company calling a paint job "flame" is beyond me.

Are you typing using a braille machine by any chance?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by nostromo

What software bundle? It comes with the OS and that's it. Everything else is an extra.

O RLY? I could have sworn that every mac comes with the iLife suite bundled for free.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Agathon
It's not black. If you knew anything, you would know that Graphite has been an interface colour scheme on Macs for years. When Apple sells a black computer, they call it "black". When they sell one in grey plastic they call it "graphite".

And tell me, would the the average person buying an iMac say, will you give me the "graphite" one? I doubt it.

In any case, why are you continuing to argue this? It's pointless other for the fact that you crave arguing the ridiculous.

You are so easy to waste it isn't funny. You need to buy a logic book.

(1) Most people never upgrade their computers.

(2) Most people do not buy professional quality workstations.

(3) Most people who buy professional quality workstations upgrade the RAM (and a lot will upgrade other stuff)

You see... it's easy when you understand the difference between "most computer buyers" and the relatively smaller number of people who buy professional workstations.

Why you didn't understand this is beyond me. You need help.

Touché as usual.

Read below...

There is no price differential. In general, the Mac Pro comes out cheaper when you don't engage in dishonest speccing. You also cannot buy a Dell that is as powerful as the Mac Pro. At least I can't seem to find the option for 8 cores at 3.0 Ghz.

And yet I'm the one using a Braille keyboard...

Pretty clear to me where the options to by a dual quad core system were. I'm all the more surprised that someone of your incomparable intelligence fails not only to find a simple computer on a simple web site. What's more amusing is that you use your incapacity to do such as part of your argumentative strategy. "I can't find it... it must not be there!". Methinks you're the one needing the logic book a bit more urgently.

What's "dishonest speccing" btw? Seems to me both companies are making clear what they are selling you on their web sites. Why that is not obvious to you is frankly, bewildering...

And you can run Vista on a Mac Pro if you want to. It's perfectly compatible.

You are right, all software is included in the base price... for a mac. With Dell you have to go through and add stuff, like anti-virus software (which the mac doesn't need) and the various multimedia bundles that Dell allows. Note also that the base price Dell 690 only has an 80GB hard drive. It will cost you another 80 bucks to get the same drive as the Mac Pro has.

The Dell PC includes NO bundles, not even an anti-virus (which anyone can get for free anyway). You have the option to choose from various pieces of software if you wish, no different from the Apple store which adds nothing either.

It might help if you thought about what you are going to type before you typed it.

The Mac Pro is a workstation, primarily designed for things like Final Cut Studio. It needs a lot of horsepower to perform those tasks quickly and efficiently. You can put up to 16GB of RAM in one of the 8 core machines to this end.

You can also put a better graphics card in it and game if you want to, but what would be the point? You would be better off buying one of Dell's gaming PCs (that's why Dell sells gaming PCs, which have Core 2's, not Xeons)

I'll use an analogy. A sports car, which is designed for racing. To this end it has a small efficient engine and great aerodynamics. It's the auto equivalent of a gaming rig with a high speed processor and graphics card. Compare that with a big rig truck which is designed to haul incredibly heavy loads, and doesn't need the aerodynamics.

Now ask yourself why someone would buy a truck and attempt to use it for racing, when you could buy a cheaper sports car?

Ah thanks for your clarification. Using your same car/truck analogy then your original statement would read:

"A big rig truck is ridiculously overpowered for racing"

I'll let the statement speak for itself.

Pwned.

Well, they are your friends, and that says a lot. Even Dell does not sell Xeon systems for gaming (Again, I can't find one). The Xeon is designed for workstations and servers.

We're talking about quad cores not Xeon in particular. Ever hear of the Core 2 Quad? Gamers kill for it. In fact, it's geared for gaming:

http://developer.intel.com/performance/desktop/dighome/gaming.htm

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Master Zen


And tell me, would the the average person buying an iMac say, will you give me the "graphite" one? I doubt it.

I guess they would probably say: "the grey one please".

In any case, why are you continuing to argue this? It's pointless other for the fact that you crave arguing the ridiculous.

Because it's the person who says that grey is the same colour as black who is being ridiculous.

Touch� as usual.

You got owned. What's new? It's not my fault you can't understand that most computer buyers don't upgrade, but that most of a particular subset of the market do.

Pretty clear to me where the options to by a dual quad core system were.

Owned again. Imran specced a single Quad Core with an inferior clock speed to the two dual cores in the entry level Mac Pro.

Try again.

I'm all the more surprised that someone of your incomparable intelligence fails not only to find a simple computer on a simple web site. What's more amusing is that you use your incapacity to do such as part of your argumentative strategy. "I can't find it... it must not be there!". Methinks you're the one needing the logic book a bit more urgently.

Not what I said. Imran said that he could get a comparable computer for cheaper. He deliberately specced something that was markedly inferior. I noted this above, but I did him the honor of asking, because I thought he couldn't have been that dishonest about it. I was wrong.

What's "dishonest speccing" btw? Seems to me both companies are making clear what they are selling you on their web sites. Why that is not obvious to you is frankly, bewildering...

It's speccing a workstation with an inferior power supply and inferior processor and then claiming it is comparable to, but cheaper than a computer which has a superior power supply and superior processing power. Dell allows you to spec a comparable machine, but it is more expensive. It also allows you to spec a slightly better one (2.33Ghz Quad Core and 1kw power supply), but that is nearly $1000 more expensive than the entry level Mac Pro, which it was supposed to be compared with.

The Dell PC includes NO bundles, not even an anti-virus (which anyone can get for free anyway). You have the option to choose from various pieces of software if you wish, no different from the Apple store which adds nothing either.

Except that the Apple Store includes a software bundle in addition to the OS. It's called iLife and it has been common knowledge for some time that it ships for free with all their computers.

Ah thanks for your clarification. Using your same car/truck analogy then your original statement would read:

"A big rig truck is ridiculously overpowered for racing"

I'll let the statement speak for itself.

And a sports car is hideously underpowered for hauling large loads.

Similarly, a workstation class computer is appropriate for things like CAD or encoding video, where you need a really fast processor. You don't need the same power for games.

Pwned.

Yes, you have been.

We're talking about quad cores not Xeon in particular. Ever hear of the Core 2 Quad? Gamers kill for it. In fact, it's geared for gaming:

You're talking about that. I'm talking about the Dell and Apple workstation computers that use Intel's Xeon processor, a processor designed for workstations and servers.

You'll note that Dell doesn't advertise these for gaming, because they aren't gaming machines. Dell sells a separate line of machines for hardcore gamers.

Even Intel advertises the Xeon as being for workstations and servers. If you go here:

http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/processors/index.htm

You'll see no Xeons. You'll see your beloved Core 2 Quad. On the other hand, if you go to the workstation page

http://www.intel.com/products/server/workstation_processors/index.htm?iid=servproc+tab_workstation

You'll see the Xeon along with others like the Core 2 Quad.

Simple logic tells you that Intel doesn't consider the Xeon to be a desktop processor. Some are dual purpose, like the Core 2 Quad (which Intel advertises as being a workstation processor, although toward the low end, as in Dell's low end workstations), but the Xeon is for workstations (and servers) only.

You know, when Dell, Apple and Intel clearly state that those processors are designed for high performance workstations, then it's reasonable to believe that that is what they are for. Hence, my original comment that a Mac Pro is overpowered for gaming. So is a Dell Precision Workstation. What's so hard to understand about that?

[Nostromo]

Originally posted by Agathon


O RLY? I could have sworn that every mac comes with the iLife suite bundled for free.

Forgot about that one. iLife Isn't there an app similar to most of the iLife apps that comes with Windows?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by nostromo

Forgot about that one. iLife Isn't there an app similar to most of the iLife apps that comes with Windows?

A couple of them. Windows Movie Maker and Windows Media Player. I think Vista has a DvD authoring program as well.

Don't know about photos, but they don't have a free Garageband equivalent.

Dell tends to bundle Photoshop elements and a few other things for a small fee, as an option.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Agathon
I guess they would probably say: "the grey one please".

Funny but most people I know called them "the black ones" back at the computer lab...

You got owned. What's new? It's not my fault you can't understand that most computer buyers don't upgrade, but that most of a particular subset of the market do.

The subset of the market you are referring to will still not likely upgrade: they'll buy the workstation they need from the start which means fiddling with the customizations on the Dell or Apple site.

Now here comes the fun part...

Owned again. Imran specced a single Quad Core with an inferior clock speed to the two dual cores in the entry level Mac Pro.

Try again.

Not what I said. Imran said that he could get a comparable computer for cheaper. He deliberately specced something that was markedly inferior. I noted this above, but I did him the honor of asking, because I thought he couldn't have been that dishonest about it. I was wrong.

It's speccing a workstation with an inferior power supply and inferior processor and then claiming it is comparable to, but cheaper than a computer which has a superior power supply and superior processing power. Dell allows you to spec a comparable machine, but it is more expensive. It also allows you to spec a slightly better one (2.33Ghz Quad Core and 1kw power supply), but that is nearly $1000 more expensive than the entry level Mac Pro, which it was supposed to be compared with.

You are such a bullsh*tter that you have no shame. Really. I am appalled at how far you go to outright LIE about things just to prove your point. This is especially pathetic considering everybody who is reading this thread has the ability to actually go to the Dell and Apple stores and compare specs and prices. Oh, that's right, you are mentally and physically unable to navigate the Dell site... how utterly convenient.

In any case I have done what you have so far feared so much to do: actually customize a Dell and a Mac Pro workstation to the last component and as far as possible for them to be equivalent. The results -unsurpringly- prove my point (and that of various others) that the Mac is more expensive than the PC, and even considering we are playing your game and comparing it to the most overpriced brand you can imagine.

I have taken the default components and modified them according to the "best" (ex: Dell comes with an 80 GB HDD, Mac comes with a 250 GB, so I up the Dell to a 250 GB).

Dell Precision 690 Workstation

* Dual Core Intel® Xeon® Processor 5150 (2.66GHz, 4MB L2,1333)
* Dual Core Intel® Xeon® Processor 5150 2.66GHz, 4MB L2,1333
* Genuine Windows Vista® Business, with Media
* 256MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro FX 3500, Dual DVI or Dual VGA or DVI + VGA
* 1GB, DDR2 SDRAM FBD Memory, 667MHz, ECC (2 DIMMS)
* 16X DVD+/-RW Roxio and Cyberlink PowerDVDâ„¢ for Vista Business
* 250GB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive with 8MB DataBurst Cacheâ„¢
* Dell 20 inch UltraSharpâ„¢ 2007FP Widescreen, adjustable stand, VGA/DVI
* USB Entry Quietkey, No Hot Keys
* Dell USB 2-Button Mechanical Mouse with Scroll
* 3 Year On-site Economy Plan

$4,216

Mac Pro

* Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
* 1GB (2 x 512MB)
* 250GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
* NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500 512MB, Stereo 3D (2 x dual-link DVI)
* Apple Cinema Display (20" flat panel)
* One 16x SuperDrive
* Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse - U.S. English
* Mac OS X - U.S. English
* AppleCare Protection Plan for Mac Pro/Power Mac (w/or w/o Display) - Auto-enroll

$4,996


Caveats:

- Given that the Mac only comes with 90 day on-site support, I had to up it with AppleCare (3 years) to make it comparable with Dell's default 3 year on-site support.

- The video card. It's the only spec which was not comparable. I therefore decided to give the most expensive card for each, in the Mac's case, a Quadro FX 4500 and in the Dell, an FX 3500. What's the price difference of these two cards? Well, for starters, Dell does not offer a 4500 (except for the 4500G which includes an additional and very expensive adapter which raises the price thus not making them comparable) but the stand alone price of a 3500 in the Dell store is $866.15. Next, I tried to find a vendor which sold the two products at the closet price of the Dell 3500. That vendor was TigerDirect which had the 3500 at $880. Meanwhile, the standard 4500 was priced at $1,450 at TigerDirect also so the price difference between the two cards was $570.

When adding this difference to the Dell, we have the following final prices:

Dell: $4,786
Mac: $4,996

So, to quote yourself,

Thank you for playing, please come again

Yes, you have been [pwned].

Oh the irony...

[Master Zen]

To add insult to Agathon's injury, here's yet another specced PC, a Gateway workstation:

Gateway E-6610Q

* Processor: Intel® Core™ 2 Extreme Quad-Core Processor QX6700 (2.66GHz, 1066MHz FSB, 2x4MB cache) .........[$700.00]
* Operating System: Genuine Windows Vista® Business (32-bit)
* Memory: 1024MB 667MHz DDR2 ECC Unbuffered Memory (2-512MB modules) .........[$60.00]
* Hard Drive: 250GB 7200rpm Serial ATA II/ 300 hard drive w/ 8MB cache .........[$100.00]
* Optical Drive: 16x Double-Layer Multi-Format DVD±/R±RW/CD-R/RW recorder
* Warranty: Desktop Value Plus Service Plan -- 3 year part/labor/NBD on-site/3 year technical support
* Keyboard: Gateway® Basic 104+ Keyboard (PS/2)
* Mouse: Gateway® Two-Button PS/2 Wheel Mouse
* Video: NVIDIA® GeForce® 7950GT 512MB GDDR3 Dual DVI - Dual Link w/ HDCP & TV-Out .........[$204.00]
* Monitor: Gateway® 21" Widescreen High Definition Performance LCD Display .........[$449.00]


Price: $3,102.00

No available Quadro card, GeForce 7950GT at the Dell store is $399 so difference with FX 4500 is $1,051.

New price:

$4,153.00

Caveats:

- This includes a 21" monitor as Gateway doesn't offer 20".
- Core 2 Quads are included as there's no Xeon option. Release price of a Xeon 5150 is $690 ($1380 for two) while the above listed Quad is $999. Do the math: $379 difference minus the price difference of the monitors.

Final price (without counting the monitor difference)

$4,532

Conclusion: Gateway is still much much cheaper.

[MRT144]

Originally posted by Agathon


Of course there are no options. Perhaps looking at Apple's site was too much for you.

The 7300 is fine for video editing, since FCP is not GPU accelerated.

1 GB OF RAM!!!

Stick to things you know, which should be easy since it isn't too much.

[Zopperoni]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Conclusion: Gateway is still much much cheaper.

Just for fun, I went to the Maingear site, and configured a PC for about the same price as the Mac Pro (~$5,000). This is my result, using the award-winning F131 as the base:

1000W Enermax Galaxy Power Supply
NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI Motherboard
Q6700 Core 2 Quad (2.66GHz x 4)
Intel Quiet CPU Cooler
2GB Corsair XMS2-8500 DDR2-1066
Western Digital Caviar SE16 250GB 7200RPM 16MB Cache - SATA II
20X Dual Layer DVD±RW Drive w/ LightScribe Technology - black
2x NVIDIA GeForce 8800 Ultra 1536MB PCIe in SLI
PhysX Accelerator w/ Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter - 128MB
Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fiâ„¢ XtremeGamer Fatal1ty
SAMSUNG 941BW Black 19" 4 ms DVI Widescreen LCD Monitor
Microsoft Windows Vista Business (32-Bit)
Logitech® Media Keyboard
Logitech® Optical Mouse
3 Year Maingear Warranty
FREE! Guild Wars: Factions PC Game

Price: $4,986.75
Verdict: w00t!

Here's the config more similar to the Mac Pro (I trimmed down the PSU and the soundcard, and removed the PhysX card):

MAINGEAR 750W Ultra Quiet Power Supply
NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI Motherboard
Q6700 Core 2 Quad (2.66GHz x 4)
Intel Quiet CPU Cooler
2GB Corsair XMS2-8500 DDR2-1066
Western Digital Caviar SE16 250GB 7200RPM 16MB Cache - SATA II
20X Dual Layer DVD±RW Drive w/ LightScribe Technology - black
2x NVIDIA GeForce 8800 Ultra 1536MB PCIe in SLI
Integrated 8-channel High Definition Audio
SAMSUNG 941BW Black 19" 4 ms DVI Widescreen LCD Monitor
Microsoft Windows Vista Business (32-Bit)
Logitech® Media Keyboard
Logitech® Optical Mouse
3 Year Maingear Warranty
FREE! Guild Wars: Factions PC Game

Price: $4,385.26
Verdict: w00t! (again)

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Master Zen

Funny but most people I know called them "the black ones" back at the computer lab...

Well, I guess you just hang around people who are colour-blind illiterates. I don't find that surprising at all.

The subset of the market you are referring to will still not likely upgrade: they'll buy the workstation they need from the start which means fiddling with the customizations on the Dell or Apple site.

Utter piffle. If that were the case, then most workstations would be more difficult for the user to upgrade than they are. For one, people with machines like this tend to swap out hard drives as higher capacity drives become cheaper.

Now here comes the fun part...

What's that? The part where you retract your ridiculous claim that people would buy a Xeon powered workstation to play games on?

I notice you're being awfully quiet about that, just as you have been awfully quiet about the other errors of reasoning you made in previous posts. But that's par for the course in your deranged attempt to boost your ego. I guess I'm lucky that this isn't your site: like the one where you regularly ban people who best you in argument.

You are such a bullsh*tter that you have no shame. Really. I am appalled at how far you go to outright LIE about things just to prove your point. This is especially pathetic considering everybody who is reading this thread has the ability to actually go to the Dell and Apple stores and compare specs and prices. Oh, that's right, you are mentally and physically unable to navigate the Dell site... how utterly convenient.

Why don't you try a bit harder, or at least wipe the spit flecks off of your monitor before you continue?

Again, I should point out that you're being awfully quiet about the mistakes in reasoning you made in previous posts. It's almost as if you want people to forget them.

In any case I have done what you have so far feared so much to do: actually customize a Dell and a Mac Pro workstation to the last component and as far as possible for them to be equivalent. The results -unsurpringly- prove my point (and that of various others) that the Mac is more expensive than the PC, and even considering we are playing your game and comparing it to the most overpriced brand you can imagine.

OK. I'm going to stop you here. And I'm going to ask you to do it again.

This time do it properly. It wasn't very hard to spot your mistake. In fact, you made the same mistake that Imran did.

You used Vista Business, when you should have used Vista Ultimate (with OS X you get everything - there is only one version). But that's not so bad, since it's only 50 bucks more. You also didn't account for the fact that nothing in the Dell approximates the Mac's software bundle, but let's not quibble about that. I think Dell gives you MS works, or some other useless piece of **** to make up for the lack of iLife.

You also included a monitor, which I might not do. Apple's monitors are notoriously expensive, and you don't need to buy an Apple monitor. Dell's ultrasharp monitors are actually very good, if not as aesthetically pleasing as Apple's displays.

But I'm not going to quibble about that, since I don't have to in order to win the argument.

Now you admit that the first system you specced had an inferior video card, so it's not really comparable. You then went and specced one with a comparable video card that you bought somewhere else (which was much more expensive than the 3500). I'll accept that this is reasonable.

Where you went wrong is that you specced the cheaper 750w Precision 690 Workstation. How do I know you did this? Well two reasons.. when I did it properly, I came out with a higher price, but you also specced the Dell for 1GB of RAM, and the 1kw version allows you to spec for a 2GB minimum.

As I said before, the Mac Pro has a much better power supply. In fact it has this 900w power supply

http://www.welovemacs.com/6614001.html

If you want a comparable Dell Workstation to that, you need to spec the 1kw Precision 690, not the 750w lower powered version you did. Unfortunately for you, the 1kw version, along with Vista Ultimate, adds another $600 or so, for a price of $4,881.

That's still about $100 cheaper than the Mac Pro...

But wait.... you specced the Dell with a crappier video card. As you said, the price difference was $570 to make the video card comparable. Let's add that $570 to the $4,881 of the properly specced 1kw Precision 690.

That adds up to a whopping $5,451. That's $455 more expensive than the Mac Pro that is its direct equivalent.

But let's be fair. Dell only allows you to spec this computer for a minimum of 2GB of RAM, so it has 1GB more than the Mac Pro.

I'm pretty sure I can get 1GB of RAM for less than $455. If I buy Apple's overpriced RAM it will cost me $300. Even then, the Mac Pro will still be cheaper. But no sane person buys RAM from Apple. A quick look tells me that 1GB from an independent mail order firm that sells Mac RAM will be somewhere between $110-140.

Next time you spend hours carefully trying to spec a computer to shame Apple, please make sure that you get the right one. Don't try to pretend that the 750w and 1kw Dell's are the same. They aren't. That's why Dell charges ~$500 more for the one with the big power supply once you add in the same processors ($3,215 vs $3,675).

So it looks like you lost.

Given your own comparison, once you take into account equivalent video cards (your estimate, not mine) and make sure that the power supplies are equivalent, it turns out that the Mac Pro is cheaper, even if you customize it with Apple's expensive peripherals.

arty:

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Master Zen
To add insult to Agathon's injury, here's yet another specced PC, a Gateway workstation:

I'm not going to bother with you silly little girls any more.

You did the same thing again.

What's more. Zopperoni did exactly the same thing. Using a cheaper and less powerful power supply to reduce the price.

All that means is that you're comparing a less powerful machine with the Macintosh.

Honestly, this thread makes you look dumber than a bag of hammers.

[Agathon]

You guys are so lame.... imagine being owned by a liberal arts major.