The obligatory Harry Potter 7 thread with spoilers

[Tuberski]

I'd keep reading this thread, but I'm getting sick of the words "dues ex machina"

ACK!

[Nostromo]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Complete disagreement here... all those "deus ex machina" (which, lets face it make the "twists" Rowling is famous for possible) add a LOT to the story and, IMO, are things that make the books better.

Neville taking the sword of Godric Gryffindor from the sorting hat showed that Neville was a true Gryffindor, embodying all of the elements that the house is famous for. Furthermore, it was NEVILLE... the guy laughed it. That was a great part of the book.

Fawkes (the Phoenix) coming out of no where, and dropping the Sorting Hat for Harry to pull the sword of Godric Gryffindor out of, showed a great closeness to Dumbledore and how much DD trusted Harry that Fawkes would help him out. That, and it allowed for the healing tears, later when Harry was stabbed by basilisk venom (which would be important later when destroying horcruxes).

And I can't believe you are really pillorying the meeting of the wands at the end of GoF!! That's an absolutely essential part... the dual core, the link between Harry and Voldy even closer, and, of course, it allows Harry to fight another day. Of course its more magical.. the same phoenix gave its tail feathers for both wands, which causes an interesting reaction when they both meet... how does not advance a magical world?

You can have nice plot twists without deus ex machinas, you know. For example, in book 3, when we learned that Sirius wasn't the one who ratted out Harry's parents and killed all those innocent people. That was a nicely done plot twist. No deus ex machinas were involved.

Good for you if these "explanations" satisfy you. But for me they don't, not by a long stretch. These scenes are all deus ex machinas and they are lame, IMO. The books would have been better without them.

[Nostromo]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


I assume you could... but I'm not sure if it is necessarily a bad thing to have such deus ex machina, if it is built on and integral to the plot and it makes the story more interesting (building up to it throughout the story and then making a plot twist work).

Then again none of those examples he stated "[did] not pay due regard to the story's internal logic", at least IMO. Fawkes had been set up earlier on in CoS, Neville's showing he was actually a worthy Gryffindor in spite of the laughing at him was set up since the end of the 1st book, and the meeting of the wands was set up, as Kuci points out above, books ago.

Which one, pray tell, didn't pay due regard to the story's internal logic?

The "internal logic" criteria is a bit ambiguous. I prefer the first definition:

The phrase deus ex machina (literally "god out of a machine") describes an unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot (e.g. the rope that binds the hero's hands is luckily chewed off by a rat, or an angel suddenly appearing to solve problems).

The rat that chewed off the rope that binds the hero's hands doesn't defy the story's internal logic, but its still a deus ex machina.

[LordShiva]

WhyTF is "food" one of teh five things that magic can't create. That's so lame. If you're a vegetarian, do you get to create a cheezburger?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by nostromo
You can have nice plot twists without deus ex machinas, you know. For example, in book 3, when we learned that Sirius wasn't the one who ratted out Harry's parents and killed all those innocent people. That was a nicely done plot twist. No deus ex machinas were involved.

Good for you if these "explanations" satisfy you. But for me they don't, not by a long stretch. These scenes are all deus ex machinas and they are lame, IMO. The books would have been better without them.

But the plot twists are not as good. Sirius not being the killer (and rather Pettigrew) was a fun little twist, but no where near as good as the twin cores meeting in the graveyard in GoF, which is perhaps the best scene in the entire series so far (arguably... the Harry walking willingly to his death may be better). I'm not sure if I can really imagine the rest of the series without the meeting of the wands... so I'm not sure if she "painted herself in a corner" so much as it being something that she considered absolutely integral and put that as a twist rather than in a more mundane area of the book.

Frankly, I think the books wouldn't have been nearly as good without the deus ex machinas. They made the plot twists work. Without them, you really couldn't write them up (how exactly would Harry escape from Quirell/Voldemort or Voldemort reborn, etc., otherwise? And if putting him in those situations requires a deus ex machina, then I think it's warrented because the books aren't as good without those scenes).

Furthermore, if you want, you can argue that Book 3 DID have a deus ex machina. Time-turner anyone?

[Nostromo]

Originally posted by LordShiva
WhyTF is "food" one of teh five things that magic can't create. That's so lame. If you're a vegetarian, do you get to create a cheezburger?

Its WTehF, silly

[Imran Siddiqui]

Btw:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19959323/

If you found the epilogue of “Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows” rather vague, then J.K. Rowling achieved her goal.

The author was shooting for “nebulous,” something “poetic.” She wanted the readers to feel as if they were looking at Platform 9¾ through the mist, unable to make out exactly who was there and who was not.

“I do, of course, have that information for you, should you require it,” she told TODAY’s Meredith Vieira rather coyly in her first interview since fans got their hands on the final book.
Ummm … yes, please!

Rowling said her original epilogue was “a lot more detailed,” including the name of every child born to the Weasley clan in the past 19 years. (Victoire, who was snogging Teddy — Lupin and Tonks’ son — is Bill and Fleur’s eldest.)

“But it didn’t work very well as a piece of writing,” Rowling said. “It felt very much that I had crowbarred in every bit of information I could … In a novel you have to resist the urge to tell everything.”

We know that Harry marries Ginny and has three kids, essentially, as Rowling explains, creating the family and the peace and calm he never had as a child.

As for his occupation, Harry, along with Ron, is working at the Auror Department at the Ministry of Magic. After all these years, Harry is now the department head.

“Harry and Ron utterly revolutionized the Auror Department,” Rowling said. “They are now the experts. It doesn’t matter how old they are or what else they’ve done.”

Meanwhile, Hermione, Ron’s wife, is “pretty high up” in the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, despite laughing at the idea of becoming a lawyer in “Deathly Hallows.”

“I think that Luna is now traveling the world looking for various mad creatures,” Rowling said. “She’s a naturalist, whatever the wizarding equivalent of that is.”

Luna comes to see the truth about her father, eventually acknowledging there are some creatures that don’t exist.

“But I do think that she’s so open-minded and just an incredible person that she probably would be uncovering things that no one’s ever seen before,” Rowling said.

When she was first asked about the possibility of Luna hooking up with Neville Longbottom several years ago, Rowling’s response was “Definitely not.” But as time passed and she watched her characters mature, Rowling started to “feel a bit of a pull” between the unlikely pair.

Ultimately, Rowling left the question of their relationship open at the end of the book because doing otherwise “felt too neat.”

Nineteen years after the Battle of Hogwarts, the school for witchcraft and wizardry is led by an entirely new headmaster (“McGonagall was really getting on a bit”) as well as a new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher. That position is now as safe as the other teaching posts at Hogwarts, since Voldemort’s death broke the jinx that kept a Defense Against the Dark Arts professor from remaining for more than a year.

Rowling said she may eventually reveal more details in a Harry Potter encyclopedia, but even then, it will never be enough to satisfy the most ardent of her fans.

[Nostromo]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

But the plot twists are not as good. Sirius not being the killer (and rather Pettigrew) was a fun little twist, but no where near as good as the twin cores meeting in the graveyard in GoF, which is perhaps the best scene in the entire series so far (arguably... the Harry walking willingly to his death may be better). I'm not sure if I can really imagine the rest of the series without the meeting of the wands... so I'm not sure if she "painted herself in a corner" so much as it being something that she considered absolutely integral and put that as a twist rather than in a more mundane area of the book.

Frankly, I think the books wouldn't have been nearly as good without the deus ex machinas. They made the plot twists work. Without them, you really couldn't write them up (how exactly would Harry escape from Quirell/Voldemort or Voldemort reborn, etc., otherwise? And if putting him in those situations requires a deus ex machina, then I think it's warrented because the books aren't as good without those scenes).

Furthermore, if you want, you can argue that Book 3 DID have a deus ex machina. Time-turner anyone?

Well, I disagree. The Sirius thingie isn't a small, little twist. It was 1000% better than the meeting of the wands, IMO. And it was much more important, too. The meeting of the wands is one of the lamest scenes in the whole series, IMO. It was just there to save Harry's skin, because Rowling had, once again, put him in an impossible situation. It doesn't add much. You could remove it without consequence. You can't say the same of the Sirius plot twist. We already knew that Harry had Voldemort's wand's twin. So what? You wanted the fireworks just to be sure?

I agree with you. The deus ex machinas were probably necessary because Rowling decided to put Harry in all those impossible situations. (Maybe a more talented, more imaginative writer could have found an alternative solution, I don't know.) But even if she had no other choice, it doesn't necessarily make the deus ex machina a good move. The solution is either not to put him those impossible situations to begin with. Or to find, if possible, a solution that doesn't involve a deus ex machina. And I'm not totally against them, just don't abuse it, like Rowling does.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by nostromo


Well, I disagree. The Sirius thingie isn't a small, little twist. It was 1000% better than the meeting of the wands, IMO.

And about 2 million % better than teh sorting hat stealing teh sword back from teh goblin

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by nostromo
Well, I disagree. The Sirius thingie isn't a small, little twist. It was 1000% better than the meeting of the wands, IMO. And it was much more important, too. The meeting of the wands is one of the lamest scenes in the whole series, IMO. It was just there to save Harry's skin, because Rowling had, once again, put him in an impossible situation. It doesn't add much. You could remove it without consequence. You can't say the same of the Sirius plot twist. We already knew that Harry had Voldemort's wand's twin. So what? You wanted the fireworks just to be sure?

I agree with you. The deus ex machinas were probably necessary because Rowling decided to put Harry in all those impossible situations. (Maybe a more talented, more imaginative writer could have found an alternative solution, I don't know.) But even if she had no other choice, it doesn't necessarily make the deus ex machina a good move. The solution is either not to put him those impossible situations to begin with. Or to find, if possible, a solution that doesn't involve a deus ex machina. And I'm not totally against them, just don't abuse it, like Rowling does.

The meeting of the wands is, IMO, the best scene in the entire series. The entire set up, from Voldy resurrecting, calling back the DEs, and then dueling Harry was brilliant. And then the wands meeting, showing that they were inexorably joined. Of course that entire thing (the wands meeting) was the reason Voldy went to search out the prophacy (leading to the end of OotP) and search out the Elder Wand (leading to a major plot in DH).

We knew Harry had the twin to Voldemort's wand, but we didn't really know what that MEANT. What it meant was that neither could really curse the other, because the wands would join (and then priori incantantem and all that).

The impossible situations are, IMO, necessary to advance the plot in such a way. How else do you get Harry and Voldemort together and Voldy realizing he needs to do something else other than simply fire Avada Kevadra at Harry? Without them, I can't imagine how the story would be able to make those points AND keep it as entertaining.

Say what you will, but the situations and the "deus ex machina" makes for very interesting and entertaining plot twists. And the vast majority of readers have embraced those twists as integral to the story. If you will, that's Rowling's trademarks, deus ex machinas that are absolutely integral to the wider story. Hell, people read for those massive plot twists and deus ex machinas. Hell, that is what really attracted me after the first book.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by LordShiva
And about 2 million % better than teh sorting hat stealing teh sword back from teh goblin

You mean the perfectly logical story arc of the sorting hat taking the sword away and giving it to a worthy Gryffindor, since it already happened in an early book?

[LordShiva]

But teh goblin had it

Dumbledore had it teh first time, and could have hidden it in teh hat or whatever.

[Imran Siddiqui]

But he didn't, the hat just fetched it . Griphook was a *****, so he didn't get to keep the sword. Them's the breaks.

[LordShiva]

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by nostromo
The two wands had the same cores, that's all we knew. And there was no mention of the possible effects if the owners of those two wands duelled. Rowling put, yet again, Harry in an impossible situation in book 4 and she pulled out of her ass the meeting of the wands thing. It was a deus ex machina and it was incredibly lame, IMO. Saved by the bell, yet again, mister Potter

We were reminded in almost every book about the same cores thing. And I suspect that she'd had that effect planned in her backstory long before she wrote the 4th book.