The obligatory Harry Potter 7 thread with spoilers

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
But the plot twists are not as good. Sirius not being the killer (and rather Pettigrew) was a fun little twist, but no where near as good as the twin cores meeting in the graveyard in GoF

You're kidding, right?

[Nostromo]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


The meeting of the wands is, IMO, the best scene in the entire series. The entire set up, from Voldy resurrecting, calling back the DEs, and then dueling Harry was brilliant. And then the wands meeting, showing that they were inexorably joined. Of course that entire thing (the wands meeting) was the reason Voldy went to search out the prophacy (leading to the end of OotP) and search out the Elder Wand (leading to a major plot in DH).

We knew Harry had the twin to Voldemort's wand, but we didn't really know what that MEANT. What it meant was that neither could really curse the other, because the wands would join (and then priori incantantem and all that).

The impossible situations are, IMO, necessary to advance the plot in such a way. How else do you get Harry and Voldemort together and Voldy realizing he needs to do something else other than simply fire Avada Kevadra at Harry? Without them, I can't imagine how the story would be able to make those points AND keep it as entertaining.

Say what you will, but the situations and the "deus ex machina" makes for very interesting and entertaining plot twists. And the vast majority of readers have embraced those twists as integral to the story. If you will, that's Rowling's trademarks, deus ex machinas that are absolutely integral to the wider story. Hell, people read for those massive plot twists and deus ex machinas. Hell, that is what really attracted me after the first book.

So we're talking for the all the Potter fans now, are we? That's mighty nice of you.

Yes, I agree. People read the books for the massive plot twists. After all, Harry Potter is also a thriller/mystery. But most Potter plot twists are not deus ex machinas. And of the deus ex machinas I can think of, none of them are really important or crucial to the overall story. They're just there to save Potter's skin. Or, in some cases, they are gratuitous. Like the Neville scene. A more talented writer wouldn't have to resort to such cheap tricks or would have used it in much smaller doses.

Anyway, I thought those scenes were lame and you thought they were brilliant. I don't think I could convince of the contrary. Whatever rocks your world, Imran.

[Jon Miller]

It wasn't a cheap trick. It was expressing magic. If she wanted, she could easily have written it differently. In fact, it would ahve been easier to write it differently (And I expected that). Instead she went with what was magical, fairy tale like, instead of what was easy.

It was a concious decision.. and Harry Potter is more then just a thriller/mystery... it is magical also.

JM

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
You're kidding, right?

Not really... I mean, it was the 3rd book, and after the first two, you knew there was a twist coming at the end. I predicted that Sirius was going to actually end up being good somewhere in the middle of the book, so it wasn't all that shocking to me. Now the whole twin cores joining thing was unexpected to me (as was the Moody being a Polyjuiced Barty Crouch, Jr.).

[Nostromo]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
It wasn't a cheap trick. It was expressing magic. If she wanted, she could easily have written it differently. In fact, it would ahve been easier to write it differently (And I expected that). Instead she went with what was magical, fairy tale like, instead of what was easy.

It was a concious decision.. and Harry Potter is more then just a thriller/mystery... it is magical also.

JM

Here's what I wrote:

After all, Harry Potter is also a thriller/mystery.

I agree, its also a fantasy novel, a boarding school novel and a bildungsroman. I'm not sure how you call those in english. Maybe a coming of age novel?

Again, I don't see how any of the stuff I mentioned earlier make the Potter books any more magical. It seems to me that they are magical enough as it is. Ursula Le Guin wrote:

In fact, when we read a novel, we are insane - bonkers. We believe in the existence of people who aren't there, we hear their voices, we watch the battle of Borodino with them, we may even become Napoleon. Sanity returns (in most cases) when the book is closed.

A common complaint about deus ex machinas is that they make sanity return before the book is closed. They mess with our suspension of disbelief. They're the narrative equivalent to bad CGI. Speaking for myself, I certainly felt that way about the deus ex machinas I mentioned. Good for you if you didn't feel that way. It means that you enjoyed the books more than me.

Again, I'm not against all uses of this tactic. It can be handled correctly in some cases. But I think that Rowling is abusing it. If the time-travel thingie in Askaban is really a deus ex machina, as Imran suggested (but I'm not sure about it), I think she handled it fairly well.

[Jon Miller]

I just think you don't like fairy/magical tales. I mean, there is tons of 'deus ex machina' there. It is part of genre.

If you don't like it, then read a different genre. There are fantasy stories which don't try to be magical (see GRR Martin's for one).

JM

[Nostromo]

I don't know... You can have excellent fantasy tales without deus ex machinas. LOTR is a lot better than the Potter books on almost all levels and, suprise, surprise, there are not a lot of deus ex machinas I can think of. There are the Eagles at the end. What else?

[Jon Miller]

Umm, didn't you notice I wasn't talking about fantasy tales? I explicitly pointed out that I wasn't talking about fantasy tales. I am talking about magical/fairy tales.

A long one of those is what Rowling was going for, and for that you want Magic. And she succeeded.

JM

[Nostromo]

What's the difference?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Jon is making a difference between a world in which somewhat fantasy creatures roam and those which also rely on the use of active magic. Also fairy tales tend to be a different genre within that, IMO. LOTR really doesn't have much 'magic' use in it. It has fantasy creatures by the score, but Gandalf really doesn't cast spells or whatnot. JM is saying that a story where magic is essential to the plot, usually has deus ex machinas... simply because of the nature of the magic in the plot (this is what the OP in the 'Economist Harry Potter' thread is arguing against for the most part).

FTR, I prefer the Harry Potter series to LOTR... YMMV .

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I just think you don't like fairy/magical tales. I mean, there is tons of 'deus ex machina' there. It is part of genre.

There's a difference between magic for teh sake of creating a better story, and magic for teh sake of cheaply bringing the author out of corners into which she's written herself. I enjoyed the former in teh HP series, and was annoyed by teh latter.

[hexagonian]

Just finished the book today. Yeah, I know this thread is 2 days old, but I gotta add my comments to one of the thoughts here...

Originally posted by aneeshm
After reading it, specially the epilogue, I realised that nothing was really fixed at a fundamental level - the entire larger system was exactly the same.

There are several truths about the human condition.

1. Mankind is generally drawn to do evil in some form, be it minor and petty, or catostrophic...This does not mean that every act of mankind is evil, or every man is rotton to the core, but evil is evident in every person in some way.

2. This truth works itself out on a societal level, and to impliment a change for the better on that level oftentimes takes years and years to accomplish.

Slavery may have been abolished in the US in the 1860's, but we, as a country, are still dealing with racial issues 150 years after the fact.

To fault Rowlings because she did not simply wipe out all forms of corruption on the systemwide level (the MoM) once Voldemort falls, totally misses the point of the story.

That point realizes that there are flaws in all humans (and the fact that she even paints the heroes in the story with flaws, character defects, and evil acts strengthens her premise) and more importantly, what each person chooses to do, despite that bent towards evil, ends up defining that person. Some choices happen overnight, and other choices take a lot of time for a person to make. And the rule of thumb is that if you want to change society, you have to change the individuals within that society to truly make it work.

Hence the time factor...things are not what they need to be in the world of Potter, (19 years after the fall of Voldemort) but they are moving in the right direction. This reflects the truth of the human condition much better that some sort of corruption-free society that aneeshm wanted Rowlings to present in the epilogue.


Having said that...my thoughts about the book.

The good...
- The whole Snape resolution. The best part of the whole book, maybe the entire series. I always thought that Snape's storyline was just as important as Potter's. Potter may be the character that kids want to identify with, but for us adults (or at least me...), Snape is more relevant.
- Taking all the other books and tying them all together. There are many times when an incident in another book suddenly takes on greater importance in Book 7. I'm glad I reread the books right before this one, because everything was fresh in my mind.
- Painting Dumbledore with a slightly tarred brush. Emphasizes once again that it is the choices one makes that ultimately defines that person.
- The epilogue. There is no need to fill in the details of everyone at the end, as much as we, the reader, want to know what happens to them. It is enough to know that the remaining survivors are free to live life without fear. It is the difference between walking away from a buffet with a bloated feeling, because you packed in every bit of food you could, and leaving contented, but also with a slight hunger.


The bad...
- Gringotts. I can accept 'deus ex machina' as a device in a book...but it became overkill here. And to top it off, this scene was a virtual rehashing of the MoM raid for the locket.
- Nagini Why did Voldemort release Nagini from her protection, fully realizing that most of his Horcruxes had been destroyed? (though the tiara might have been still safe in Voldemort's mind) He's about to enter a battle where spells are flying all over the place, and that something could hit Nagini accidentally.
I gues we can chalk it up to Voldemort's one flaw though - arrogance. And the means to allow Neville to finish the job of Horcrux destruction.
- Secondary Character Deaths Most of them were reported second-hand. Presenting them to the reader while they occured would of made the reader feel more of the weight that Harry was supposed to be feeling.


The expected...
- Snape, Lily and Petunia all together in a scene
- Harry as a Horcrux


The unexpected...
- The body count was much lower than I thought it would be
- The means of Snape's death which was much more shocking AND better than I thought it would be, even though I fully expected him to be in a body bag.

That is why Rowlings is the writer and I am the reader...

[Tuberski]

Did no one seem to notice that Kingsley Shacklebolt was named Minister of Magic?

He seems to be a better choice for the Wizarding world than the previous 2 Ministers.

ACK!

[Guynemer]

We never really learned a whole lot about Kingsley, other than he was obviously quite brave. I'd have liked to have learned more about him, actually.

[Dr Strangelove]

OK, so that stuff that Lonestar wrote earlier about Harry being rescued by snipers equipped with laser gun-sights was a bunch of baloney? Boy, that really cheeses me off. I can't believe he'd stoop that low, I mean, he's a Texan for chrissakes! If you can't trust a Texan who can you trust? G-- D---, I'll never trust another human being the rest of my life. You should be ashamed of yourself Mr. Lonestar!