China, trade, and consumer safety

[Odin]

Originally posted by LordShiva


@ Commies

I'm a NON-Marxist Socialist.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Tingkai
According to the Times, the worst culprits for substand food exported to the U.S. is not China, but India and Mexico.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/12/business/12imports.html?hp

Ban food from India.

The NYT also has an interesting story about the former Chinese drug regulator who was recently exceutived, a man who started out as an idealistic reformer only to become a bribe-taker responsible for many deaths.

Yes, but the difference is that India and Mexico have simply been lax with food safety: "filthy". The Chinese companies have been deliberately using dangerous components in their products to undercut costs. The problem is far more insidious and difficult to control. Mexico and India simply need to clean up their food, China needs to enforce morality. Also, according to that article over the past year, China has had more shipments stopped than India or Mexico. Only combined do India and Mexico surpass China.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Tingkai


I was just telling you about the WTO rules.

And like I said, the U.S. could ban all direct China imports, but that wouldn't stop indirect imports. It wouldn't stop the crap made in India and Mexico.

A complete ban would also piss off American consumers who suddenly have to start paying a lot more money for lot of products.

The only effective solution is to hire more food safety inspectors. Call your congressman.

But the U.S. government won't hire more inspectors because American business people would complain. They don't want to lose access to cheap materials.

A lot of the problems are caused by companies that want the cheapest product without asking questions so that they can make the most profit.

It's the free market at work.



As for the company that didn't know where its raw materials came from, see:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/04/business/quality.php

The company owner "Ehrlich said he had been unaware of where the ingredients used in the seasoning originated. The products are made under contract. Ehrlich declined to identify the manufacturer."

I agree with Tingkai in that an outright ban of Chinese products would be ineffective, but simply increasing funding to the USFDA won't solve the problem. It would help a bit for Americans because the FDA is in serious need of reform. However, an important thing to be done is to make these incidents known. But it shouldn't be target at countries specifically but to companies. The countries involved need to be informed of the problem with their local companies. However, if the country is intractable, then revealing such national information may help to apply some international pressure for reform.

[pchang]

The US Approach

is to publicize fundings on a per company basis and ban things on a per company basis. However, with seafood, the US took the measure of banning imports for shrimp, eel, catfish, basa, and dace from all of China.

The US first banned specific companies, but test showed 1/4 of all shipments to be contaminated beyond acceptability. Over a 6 month period, there was no improvement at all. Thus, the US regulators considered this to be an indication of endemic non-enforcement/inspection on the Chinese side and took the drastic step of banning imports from the entire country instead of on a company by company basis.

[DaShi]

Good then.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by DaShi


I agree with Tingkai in that an outright ban of Chinese products would be ineffective, but simply increasing funding to the USFDA won't solve the problem. It would help a bit for Americans because the FDA is in serious need of reform. However, an important thing to be done is to make these incidents known. But it shouldn't be target at countries specifically but to companies. The countries involved need to be informed of the problem with their local companies. However, if the country is intractable, then revealing such national information may help to apply some international pressure for reform.

It's a rare day when we agree, but I agree with you to a large extent.

The only thing is the U.S., and probably Canada too, need to hire more food inspectors. Fast Food Nation makes for some scary reading.

[DanS]

Originally posted by DaShi
China's response to dangerous goods being exported out of their country: "The US puts too much red dye in the fruit juice it sends here! "

It's hard to for them to fix it, when they don't even know what the problem is.

And it totally misses the point. This isn't about the WTO, tariffs, FDA, or executing food safety officials. That's all window dressing.

Over the last several months, corporate China has irreparably damaged its reputation in the American consumer's eyes. "Made in China" was never particularly a badge of dishonor before this. Perhaps we'll see more of this type of stuff as China tries moving up the manufacturing value ladder.

[Whoha]

More on the Chinese bans on US imports:

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/jul/15/china_suspends_us_meat_imports/

Beijing — China has suspended imports of chicken feet, pig ears and other animal products from seven U.S. companies, including the world’s largest meat processor, in an apparent attempt to turn the tables on American complaints about tainted products from China.

The American meat had contaminants including salmonella, feed additives and veterinary drugs, according to a list posted on the Web site of China’s General Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine late Friday.

...

Frozen pork ribs from Wichita, Kan.-based Cargill Meat Solutions Corp. contained the leanness-enhancing feed additive ractopamine, the agency said. Frozen pig ears from Kansas City, Mo.-based Van Luin Foods USA, Inc. were found to contain ractopamine. Frozen chicken feet from Atlanta-based Intervision Foods was tainted with salmonella, and frozen pork from Atlanta’s AJC International, Inc. was tainted with ractopamine, the agency said.

Salmonella of course in chicken(always cook chicken and clean up after yourself).

But the really interesting thing is this ractopamine business what oh what could it be?

http://buy.ecplaza.net/search/1s1nf20sell/ractopamine.html

[pchang]

ractopamine

is an animal feed additive that has been show to improve the weight gain and lean meat gain in animals. The FDA in its infinite wisdom has deemed that it is safe for human consumption. China has not done so, but is in the process of studying it for approval.

Frankly, I think we should not give anything to animals and feed them only a vegetarian diet. In addition, I think that cattle and sheep should only be grassfed.

China's response appears more political than safety minded, but if they can force everyone to reduce the use of feed additives and have higher standards for salmonella contamination, then that would be a net benefit for everyone.

[Whoha]

Read the second link And I agree, though for slightly different reasons, that it should be banned

[pchang]

of course it s made in China

just like everything else. Just because they make it doesn't mean it is approved for use in their own country. Of course, I don't believe it was ever banned from use in China either...

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by DaShi


Yes, but the difference is that India and Mexico have simply been lax with food safety: "filthy". The Chinese companies have been deliberately using dangerous components in their products to undercut costs. The problem is far more insidious and difficult to control. Mexico and India simply need to clean up their food, China needs to enforce morality. Also, according to that article over the past year, China has had more shipments stopped than India or Mexico. Only combined do India and Mexico surpass China.

Just noticed this post.

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your comments are extremely misleading.

India is a bigger problem for the U.S. in terms of tainted goods.

India had the most food shipments rejected, about 1,900 last year, followed by Mexico with about 1,500 and then China with about 1,400.

China led in overall shipments being rejected, closely followed by India, But China ships 10 times as much to the U.S. as India in terms of dollar. So on a per shipment basis, India is much worse.

And whether a seller cuts corners by producing goods in a filthy, disease ridden factory, or using dangerous ingredients, the motive is the same: greed.

And there's nothing in the article to indicate that Mexican companies "have simply been lax with food safety: "filthy"." Instead, filth was the top reason, but not the only reason Mexican products were rejected. Indian and Mexican companies may well have been deliberately using dangerous materials. Any company that does so should be condemned, not just the Chinese ones.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Just noticed this post.

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your comments are extremely misleading.

They are not misleading at all.

India is a bigger problem for the U.S. in terms of tainted goods.

India had the most food shipments rejected, about 1,900 last year, followed by Mexico with about 1,500 and then China with about 1,400..

Where are you getting your numbers?

China led in overall shipments being rejected, closely followed by India, But China ships 10 times as much to the U.S. as India in terms of dollar. So on a per shipment basis, India is much worse?

True, but by total shipments, China is worse.

And whether a seller cuts corners by producing goods in a filthy, disease ridden factory, or using dangerous ingredients, the motive is the same: greed.

Not at all. There are other reasons the food could be become filthy or diseased. It could have occured during shipment or simply overlooked accidentally. There is only one reason to put in cheaper substitute ingredients: greed.

And there's nothing in the article to indicate that Mexican companies "have simply been lax with food safety: "filthy"." Instead, filth was the top reason, but not the only reason Mexican products were rejected. Indian and Mexican companies may well have been deliberately using dangerous materials. Any company that does so should be condemned, not just the Chinese ones.

True, but there is nothing in the article that dangerous ingredients were being deliberately used by Mexico or India either. To say that they were without evidence is slander. That may be why the article didn't go beyond "filthy."

And I'm not arguing that only Chinese companies should be condemned for using dangerous goods. I agree that if Mexican or Indian companies were caught using such dangerous goods, then they should be condemned. China's problem is that their companies were caught and then US inspectors met with heavy resistence from the government in trying to determine the truth behind the incidents. This along with a general impression of China that little will get done to change this other than a few token measures makes people worry about Chinese products. As someone who lived in China, you know how the Chinese think of their own products. In fact, we don't get it as bad as they do.

[DaShi]

Oops

[Tingkai]

Yes, once again you have distorted the information to go on an anti-Chinese tirade.

I provided facts from that article that shows your mistakes. Anyone can read the article to see through your distortions.