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  • #91
    Was the late Roman Empire progressive. If you study the Chinese model it becomes apparent that great empires, though acting to stabilize commerce and enforcing the peace within their borders often stymie creativity. This is especially a problem when the central authority becomes increasingly self-centered. By the time of Caligula Roman Emporers were declaring themselves gods. When the ruiler becomes a deity the entire society becomes subordinate to his whim. Such rulers often see innovation as a threat to their authority and hence the stifle creativity. Rome in its last 2 centuries may have built cities and trade routes, but I'm not aware that it was an era of rapid scientific progress.

    Furthermore, since the Eastern Empire continued on, why didn't Roman science continue to flourish? I think that by the 3rd century Rome's cultural age of advancement had come to an end and had the barbarian invasions never happened and the western empire had lived on there would not have been much difference in the rate of scientific advancement during the years which we now call the dark ages.

    On the other hand, when one considers the role of Islam on world scientific advancement, had the Islamic invaders not inserted themselves between Europe and India would it not be likely that Indian numerals might have reached Europe even earlier? The muslims sometimes facilitated east-west trade, but just as often they acted as a wall sealing Europe off from the east. Turning the argument around once more, had the Roman Empire continued to control western commerce and thought, might it have suppressed the use of the new numerical system?
    "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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    • #92
      Strangelove, non islamic persia who was constantly at war with the byzantines and persecuted christians was a bigger wall than the muslims.
      I need a foot massage

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      • #93
        My graph was way better than this discussion. But it seems to have disappeared...
        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
        Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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        • #94
          Originally posted by BeBro
          Maybe it would have been valid if they had made an attempt to get facts, dates and terms straight. As the graph looks now they either know jack**** about history, or they're are deliberately distorting it.
          No religion still held back scientific advancement even though that graph is ****ed up. The point is valid.
          I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
          - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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          • #95
            -> Religion Forum

            Maybe it would have been valid if they had made an attempt to get facts, dates and terms straight. As the graph looks now they either know jack**** about history, or they're are deliberately distorting it.


            No religion still held back scientific advancement even though that graph is ed up. The point is valid.
            I don't think anyone has contested the "point" that science was held back by religion. And even if they did, wouldn't it be helpful in this day and age to observe a bit of accuracy? You know, argue by scientific standards instead of dogmatic ones whenever possible, hm?

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            • #96
              winston, i think expecting a good argument from kid, is asking a bit much.
              "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

              "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Winston
                -> Religion Forum



                I don't think anyone has contested the "point" that science was held back by religion. And even if they did, wouldn't it be helpful in this day and age to observe a bit of accuracy? You know, argue by scientific standards instead of dogmatic ones whenever possible, hm?
                Ok, it's just a thread to nit pick some stupid persons graph then.
                I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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                • #98
                  Sigh.... kid....several people wrote that there are serious problems with that graph, and obvious mistakes. If they can't even wrap their "point" (valid or not) in the correct context, they suck, period. That's exactly their problem - making a point seems more important to them than getting even the most basic terminology and chronology right. One could say they make so serious mistakes that they damage the very point they want to make, because amongst all the errors and inaccuracies it rather gets lost.

                  And that is why my point stands that they either are ignorant about history, or making things up.
                  Last edited by BeBMan; June 26, 2007, 11:24.
                  Blah

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


                    On the other hand, when one considers the role of Islam on world scientific advancement, had the Islamic invaders not inserted themselves between Europe and India would it not be likely that Indian numerals might have reached Europe even earlier? The muslims sometimes facilitated east-west trade
                    I doubt that Indian numerals and theory would have reached Europe earlier without the Muslim world.

                    There are Hindu prohibitions on travelling overseas, and only one Hindu Empire really extended itself into South East Asia.

                    Muslim traders treated the Indian Ocean pretty much the way the Romans treated the Mediterranean, and Arab sailors from Yemen had been engaged in trade with India and beyond before Muhammad's time.


                    The Fatimids traded willingly with Venice and Genoa- and the Abbasids traded with the Franks, and the Byzantines with the Cordoban Caliphate.


                    Even when theoretically at war with the Ottomans, Venice could still send artefacts, trade goods and painters to the Sultan.

                    The Sultan Mehmet, by Gentile Bellini:
                    Attached Files
                    Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

                    ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

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                    • The main piece missing from the graph is the units of the Y-axis. I suppose this is being measured in furlongs-per-fortnight, so that dividing by the X-axis of years provides acceleration.

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                      • Originally posted by Barnabas
                        Strangelove, non islamic persia who was constantly at war with the byzantines and persecuted christians was a bigger wall than the muslims.
                        ??? Persia was one of the first areas Islamified after the Muslims completed their conquest of the Arabian peninsula. We're talkng about sometime around or before 700 AD, at the very height of the Middle Ages. The Hindu numeral system was completed sometime around 800 to 900 AD.
                        "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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                        • Originally posted by molly bloom


                          I doubt that Indian numerals and theory would have reached Europe earlier without the Muslim world.

                          There are Hindu prohibitions on travelling overseas, and only one Hindu Empire really extended itself into South East Asia.
                          Before its fall Roman traders ventured as far as the Malay peninsula, as testified by Roman artifacts found in Thai cities.
                          Muslim traders treated the Indian Ocean pretty much the way the Romans treated the Mediterranean, and Arab sailors from Yemen had been engaged in trade with India and beyond before Muhammad's time.

                          The Fatimids traded willingly with Venice and Genoa- and the Abbasids traded with the Franks, and the Byzantines with the Cordoban Caliphate.

                          Even when theoretically at war with the Ottomans, Venice could still send artefacts, trade goods and painters to the Sultan.
                          Never the less trade between Europe and India came under control of the Muslims by 800 AD. This trade became subject to their whims. It could be cut off or they might allow europeans to purchase Eastern goods at their ports or if a mood of generosity struck them they might allow Europeans to travers their territory.
                          If Islam had never been conceived then the Eastern Empire would have had trade routes to India via the ancient roads connecting Judea with Yemen.
                          "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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                          • Originally posted by Asher
                            Jesus christ, are you serious?
                            I knew this one was a 'runner'....

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                            • Well given the current politicisation of science by the IPCC to get the anti-capitalist post-communist scum on board, the graph should be on a downward trend at the moment.
                              www.my-piano.blogspot

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                              • My graph was way better than this discussion.


                                It was indeed.

                                But it seems to have disappeared...


                                That's happening a lot these days.
                                KH FOR OWNER!
                                ASHER FOR CEO!!
                                GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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