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I wasn't aware there are rural versions of Ultra Orthodox communities actually.
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DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts. -
The Amish and Mennonites are anabaptists, rather. But they have similarly-sized families and eschew modernity (running water, electricity, mechanization). Of course, there are as many differences between the UO and Amish and Mennonites. Among the differences is that the Amish and Mennonites have agrarian societies.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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I know, but LOTM mentioned Ultra Orthodox communities moving to the countryside.
And maybe I should have shown you the Jewish quarter when you were around.DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
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I didn't understand the UO to have moved to the countryside. Rather, LOTM described them as moving out of NYC proper. Still urban.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Wouldn't suburbia be too car-dependant for sabbath? Those geezers seem like a perfect antidote for urban sprawl.DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
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I wouldn't expect the UO to have the full suburban experience. Rather, they would gravitate toward the towns within suburbia.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Yet another thread hijacked by the Joo Mafia.
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- ElokComment
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Gentrify is not quite the right word. They generally dont have a huge interest in the external appearances of appartment buildings, and thats been an issue in parts of NYC where developers build new for them. Very practical, very barren. When they build single family houses they are more concerned with aesthetics, but their aesthethics lean more toward late 19th c central european upper middle class vulgarity, from what I know of it.Originally posted by Colon™
Yeah, it's the eruv I was thinking of.
And they first have to gentrify their own neighbourhood before they get do others.
Gentrify in the context I was using it involved turning parts of certain NYC slums into safe neighborhoods."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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Originally posted by Colon™
Wouldn't suburbia be too car-dependant for sabbath? Those geezers seem like a perfect antidote for urban sprawl.
Two places Im familiar with Monsey/New Square in Rockland County NY, and "Kiryas Joel" in Monroe NY.
Monsey was a traditional NY suburb, but like many older NYC suburbs, a tad denser than many recent suburbs. Just dense enough for them to squeeze to be within walking distance for Sabbath (as indeed, many modern O live in suburban areas in the US and dont drive on Sabbath). When a vacant lot becomes available, or a lot that can be economically rebuilt, they build at higher densities, within what the zoning allows.
In Kiryas Joel, much further out, the Satmar sect bought a large block of vacant land, and theyve developed it with townhouses and small apartment buildings at much higher densities than the surrounding suburbs. This has been a matter of some controversy, and is a big issue in local politics IIUC.
There may be some zoning controversies in Monsey as well, but Im not familiar.
Ive heard vague things about some families moving much further out than Monsey to the Catsills area, esp South Fallsburg. But that is an old resort area, and as such has areas with relatively high density, along the lines DanS suggested.
as for required densities, lets do the math.
While they CAN participate in a small synagogue, and that is useful to them in expanding to an area with few hasidim, in Monroe and Monsey theyve built larger ones to be sect HQ, or "sub HQ". Now how many do they need for that? Even the sect HQs are hardly cathedrals. 200 to 300 families probably justifies a "large" synagogue to them (their whole structure for remunerating clergy is, IIUC, radically different from that in Reform-Conser-Modern O synagogues - they dont do sermons at Sabbath, any adult male can lead services, the rabbis make their livings as teachers in Yeshivas,etc) A typical american suburb is 4 units to the acre or so. A single square mile, if 100% populated by members of a given sect, would have enough units to support a "large" synagogue. Now even Monroe isnt 100% Satmar, but any dilution due to diversity (the presence of say, Ger or Bobover hasidim instead of Satmar) is easily offset by only slightly higher than typical densities.Last edited by lord of the mark; June 20, 2007, 09:55."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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I dropped in one line. I only followed up cause Colon was interested.Originally posted by Last Conformist
Yet another thread hijacked by the Joo Mafia.
Ive said to much, though - Id like to hear more about Antwerp, both its Jewish and non-Jewish communities.
so, q's
1. Where exactly is the hasidic community in A? I looked for signs of it on google earth, and an address in google, but found nothing.
2. Is gentrification an important issue in A? Again, what sections are especially involved?
3. Where are the major communities of new immigrants? Are they all mixed together, or do they seperate by nationality?
4. IIUC there are many francophones in A. Is that so? Do they live mixed in the general population, or are there seperate francophone and "flemish" sections, a la Montreal?
5. Any other interesting geographical/demographic issues in A? esp ones that would be visible in google earth?
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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'Originally posted by lord of the mark
I dropped in one line. I only followed up cause Colon was interested.
It wouldn't be much of a mafia if you were the only member, would it?Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- ElokComment
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Originally posted by Last Conformist
'
It wouldn't be much of a mafia if you were the only member, would it?
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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Oh, I know what style you mean. Don't like it. Fortunatly their 'hood has a lot of real 19th century houses already. Their 'hood is in Antwerp is okay-ish re crime, not really a slum, just a bit run out.Originally posted by lord of the mark
Gentrify is not quite the right word. They generally dont have a huge interest in the external appearances of appartment buildings, and thats been an issue in parts of NYC where developers build new for them. Very practical, very barren. When they build single family houses they are more concerned with aesthetics, but their aesthethics lean more toward late 19th c central european upper middle class vulgarity, from what I know of it.
Gentrify in the context I was using it involved turning parts of certain NYC slums into safe neighborhoods.
I was thinking of speculative projects, the lofts-kind of gentrification.
Kiryas Joel doesn't seem particularly more dense than the visible areas around it, though I can't really make out if those are multistory buildings or single-family houses. What are the main occupations for the people living there?
And haven't the ultras considered starting Salt Lake City copycat yet?DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Colon™
Oh, I know what style you mean. Don't like it. Fortunatly their 'hood has a lot of real 19th century houses already. Their 'hood is in Antwerp is okay-ish re crime, not really a slum, just a bit run out.
I was thinking of speculative projects, the lofts-kind of gentrification.
Kiryas Joel doesn't seem particularly more dense than the visible areas around it, though I can't really make out if those are multistory buildings or single-family houses.
its got about 18000 people in one square mile. Even assumming, say, 6 people per household (which despite the large families is high -remember theyve got couples just starting out, old people, etc) thats 3000 households, which is about 5 per acre. Standard US single family suburb is on 1/4 acre lots (sorry I dont know from metric land measures) which, given land for roads, community services etc is usually effectively 2 households per acre. Theyre closer even in households per acre to a high density, all townhouse type suburb, and of course the household sizes are dramatically larger.
What are the main occupations for the people living there?
As far as I know the same as we've discussed so far - diamonds, electronics, digital economy, etc (plus a fair number of people employed WITHIN the community, as teachers, in retail, bus drivers, etc) Monroe is considered within commuting distance of mid town Manhattan.
And haven't the ultras considered starting Salt Lake City copycat yet?
A whole city on their own? No. A. Too many things they cant do (note Hasidism not the same as UltraO, and how that effects these settlement patters would be a whole nother essay B. Too hard coordinating all the different hasidic groups, which are sometimes at each others throats C. Too hard to find land for it anywhere close to NYC - they wouldnt want to abandon their existing infrastructure (and couldnt sell it for anything close to what its worth to them) and individual families dont like to move so far from mama. As it is its been touch and go doing much smaller projects. One group tried to buy an old school in Scranton, Pennsylvania but was outbid. Satmer tried to buy the former Creedmore mental hospital in Queens NY, but the deal fell through, and theyve tried to start a small community near Far Rockaway, NY instead."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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Originally posted by lord of the mark
1. Where exactly is the hasidic community in A? I looked for signs of it on google earth, and an address in google, but found nothing.
To my knowledge, it's within the red line, give or take a few streets. Those areas aren't exclusively Jewish, but mixed with immigrants (or descendants) and whites.
The blue line is the diamond quarter.
It's a very important issue. Gentrification has been taking affecting large portions of the inner city (not using the yankee definition of inner city here - I'm talking of the dense part of the city, inside the beltway). The biggest succes-stories are in the South (green cross to left) and Zurenborg (to the right). These hoods contain a lot of high-standing 19th century architecture that has been renoved, along the construction of upper-market residences.2. Is gentrification an important issue in A? Again, what sections are especially involved?
The neighboorhoods in which the Hasidic Jews live are amongst the least affected by urban renewal. The starting point wasn't as bad as elsewhere though, but it's only been overtaken.
Things are fairly mixed. There are concentrations but it's not the case you'll be exclusively seeing faces of one colour in one hood. People of foreign origin can be found all over. Within the inner city the South and Zurenborg hoods are relatively white. The northern part of the inner city has the highest concentration of immigrants.3. Where are the major communities of new immigrants? Are they all mixed together, or do they seperate by nationality?
Hmm, any francophones around would be of foreign origin and those aren't living in separate hoods in so far they aren't living amongst others of foreign origin. The francophone bourgousie that once existed (as it did elsewhere in Flanders) has disappeared.4. IIUC there are many francophones in A. Is that so? Do they live mixed in the general population, or are there seperate francophone and "flemish" sections, a la Montreal?
Construction site of the biggest Jain temple outside of India:5. Any other interesting geographical/demographic issues in A? esp ones that would be visible in google earth?
Not sure what else would be of interest to you.Last edited by Colon™; June 20, 2007, 19:10.DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
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