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i got some inlaws whose cousins are contributing to fertility rate in Belgium, I think.
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"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber -
30 year old Italian men still living with their parents is near perfect form of birth control.What happened to big italian families?"The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.Comment
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The Orthodox Jewish community here is breeding like rabbits.Originally posted by lord of the mark
i got some inlaws whose cousins are contributing to fertility rate in Belgium, I think.DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
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I assume the more modern O are not. But in Antwerp, IIUC, about half of the J community is hasidim, and they tend to double every twenty years, over here.Originally posted by Colon™
The Orthodox Jewish community here is breeding like rabbits."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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Why is that anyway? These kinds of demographics isn't doing a lot of good to their material well-being (especially because their traditional source of income, the diamond trade, is increasingly controlled by Indians).DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
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[really bad joke]
They are preparing for the next holocaust - the more they are, the greater the chance some may survive.
[/really bad joke]
Edit : did I really write that ?
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven WeinbergComment
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Damn quote button
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven WeinbergComment
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1. they dont do birth control, and believe in being fruitful and multiplying, and generally have families of from 7 to 10 kidsOriginally posted by Colon™
Why is that anyway? These kinds of demographics isn't doing a lot of good to their material well-being (especially because their traditional source of income, the diamond trade, is increasingly controlled by Indians).
2. Are they losing the diamond trade in Antwerp? They still control it in NYC, and theyve moved on to lots of other fields from photography retail, to retail electronics, to real estate, misc wholesaling, etc. Many now have web based businesses. Some individuals are poor, but the community on the whole is not.
If they are unable to break into other fields, I suppose the (relatively tiny) Antwerp community will send emigrants to NYC.
3. at some level they arent concerned about material well being ("God will provide") OTOH IMHO if there was largescale descent into poverty theyd have trouble retaining all their folks, (like happened to Polish UltraO jews in the 1920s) but so far theyve managed to avoid that."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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They control only about 1/3 of the trade in Antwerp nowadays and they haven't been breaking into other fields AFAIK. There probably isn't as much of a digital economy here as in New York so maybe that explains it. Poverty is pretty widespread and the Jewish quarters of the city are pretty run-down. There's already a net emigration but it's dwarved by the natural growth of the community, which is why something's gotta give at some point.DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
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when I first started seeing QOTM twenty years ago, and started to get to know the community in NY, my gut was "somethings got to give" They dont go to secular college, and they know that poverty could lead folks to question the lifestyle the way nothing else does, and they wont leave greater NY (too close to their birth families, institutions, etc). Theyve gone from diamonds to photography, to retail electronics. But at some point they must run of retail sectors that A. Pay a decent living B. Dont require a college degree and C. Dont require cultural things they cant do (no womens high fashion, for ex) At some point somethings gotta give.Originally posted by Colon™
They control only about 1/3 of the trade in Antwerp nowadays and they haven't been breaking into other fields AFAIK. There probably isn't as much of a digital economy here as in New York so maybe that explains it. Poverty is pretty widespread and the Jewish quarters of the city are pretty run-down. There's already a net emigration but it's dwarved by the natural growth of the community, which is why something's gotta give at some point.
Well its 20 years now, and whats given? first there are a lot more suitable niches than Id have imagined - eg wholesaling, real estate, etc. second, as you rightly mentioned, theres the digital econ, which theyve taken to with a vengeance. Lots of them doing something vague involving computers, apparently not requiring a regular college degree. Which leads to the third - while they still wont appear on a normal college campus, theyve taken full advantage of correspondence courses, extension courses (esp by Touro college, an Orthodox college that offers gender segregated classes on tech subjects in ultra O neighborhoods, but also by NYC community colleges), etc, and have managed to fill in a niche in high demand in NYC. Fourth, theyve managed to accept a few taking even more college than that - I have a hassidic nephew who is an EMT, and has at least a standard two year degree, and a hasidic neice, who, g-d save the mark, has a masters degree in special education. Which brings us to point 5, theyve come to accept women working, at various ages and stages, as they hadnt before. Many in web based businesses, others as secretaries, receptionists, etc (IE beyond the traditionally accepted teaching to young children) Sixth, theyve kept standards of living up by leaving traditional Orthodox neighborhoods, and "gentrifying" marginal areas. Seventh, theyve been able to deal with a certain portion of the community (10%?) living in real poverty (by US standards) with charitable support from the rest of the community."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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I hope your story point the future for the community here.
Aren't (Ultra?) Orthodox Jews obliged to live within self-imposed boundaries (forgot what the proper word was again)? If so, how did they get round of it in NYC?DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
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No. they arent.Originally posted by Colon™
I hope your story point the future for the community here.
Aren't (Ultra?) Orthodox Jews obliged to live within self-imposed boundaries (forgot what the proper word was again)? If so, how did they get round of it in NYC?
Maybe youre thinking of an Eruv? thats a boundary that (via a legal loophole) enables them to carry things outodoors on the Sabbath (which would otherwise be considered work) Theres a strong tendency to want to live within an eruv (its a damned pain not to, if youre a mom with a baby) but its not required. And eruvs can be expanded. and the most extreme groups dont accept community eruvs anyway - they dont accept such loopholes (they usually will still accept an eruv connecting pairs of private houses, which enables the mom to carry her baby to her neighbor on Sabbath, among other conveniences)"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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They do have to live within walking distance of a synagogue, since they cant drive on sabbath.
Establishing a new ultra O community can therefore be done in one of three ways.
A. they can move say, a half km or so beyond the old community. They now have a LONG walk to synagogue. When enough have moved to the frontier area, they start a new synagogue, enabling the process to start again. It would make a fun TBS game.
B. They can move to an area with an existing Orthodox community and attend the heretical modern Orthodox synagogue until they have enough for an ultraO synagogue. Depends on how ultraO they are.
C. They can move to a community as a planned multifamily group.
All three of the above have occured in NY, mainly A, not to many examples of B lately, and a few examples of C, mainly in the country side northwest of NYC."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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Yeah, it's the eruv I was thinking of.
And they first have to gentrify their own neighbourhood before they get do others.
DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
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Interesting stuff. I'm very familiar with the rural variety of such communities -- the Amish and Mennonites -- since they were my neighbors growing up, but haven't heard much about the urban variety.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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