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Originally posted by Sirotnikov
I thought allies aren't meant to spy on allies...
I thought allies aren't meant to spy on allies...
We were legally gathering intelligence in the open seas.
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Spying is illegal.
We were legally gathering intelligence in the open seas. -
So it is ok if Israel... say... gathers intelligence in open space? Photographs the USA or uses space-sigint capabilities to "legally gather intelligence"?Originally posted by Zkribbler
Spying is illegal.
We were legally gathering intelligence in the open seas.
Gathering intelligence is gathering intelligence.
No way around it.Comment
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Yes, it is. I bet they do actually."The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.Comment
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?Originally posted by lord of the mark
as Oren points out, if they knew it was an unarmed, isolated ship, and they wanted to sink it, they could have used a sub, they didnt need to attack it from the air, openly implicating themselves.
If there are problems with the story that it was done by mistake, there are equal or greater holes in the theory that it was done deliberately.
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andAfter the Israeli fighter jets had emptied their arsenal of rockets, three Israeli attack boats approached the Liberty. Two torpedoes were launched at the crippled ship, one tore a 40-foot wide hole in the hull, flooding the lower compartments, and killing more than a dozen American sailors.
The Liberty's radio team tried to issue a distress call, but discovered the frequencies had been jammed by the Israeli planes with what one communications specialist called "a buzzsaw sound"Comment
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What did they say caused it? They blamed a dead sailor, they accused him of being a jilted homosexual who committed suicide by sabotaging the gun. Is that evidence of a cover up? Its disgusting what they did to Clayton Hartwig and his loved ones, and no heads rolled. That smells like a cover up, a cover story with the liars going unpunished because it was the military brass doing the lying. Same thing with Abu Ghraib, some grunts get punished but not the military brass telling the grunts to "soften up" prisoners.There is absolutely no evidence that the Iowa incident was anything other than what they said. Unless you care to tell me what weapons can penetrate the turret armor of an Iowa BB.
The Stark is a case study for every naval officer since it happened. I have personally been forced to study it in ROTC, OCS, and numerous training events in fleet. Not exactly covering anything up now, are they?
LOTM - did the Israelis punish anyone? If it was a mistake people are usually held accountable unless of course it wasn't a mistake and the pilots and everyone did as told.Comment
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Hmmm, it smells like one eh? So really, you think thats what happened because it offends you to think otherwise. Nice.hat smells like a cover up, a cover story with the liars going unpunished because it was the military brass doing the lying.
Incidently, looks like a good 1000 of his junior sailor shipmates are lying too, if thats what you want to believe.
You mean the grunts that actually committed the crimes? Shocked I amSame thing with Abu Ghraib, some grunts get punished but not the military brass telling the grunts to "soften up" prisoners.
"The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.Comment
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It could have been a mistake, but an honest one. I think we have proven, however, that it was complete incompetence, not a mistake.LOTM - did the Israelis punish anyone? If it was a mistake people are usually held accountable unless of course it wasn't a mistake and the pilots and everyone did as told."The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.Comment
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I appreciate the naval experience brought here, but none of our sailors has fought in combat in anything like the circumstances the Israeli navy faced in June 1967, so while i value their opinions, its not dispositive.Originally posted by SpencerH
So what's new here? Anyone with an inkling of experience in this area understands that the Israeli's knew it was an american ship."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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Obviously what Jonathan Pollard did was illegal, and he deserved to go to jail.Originally posted by Zkribbler
Spying is illegal.
We were legally gathering intelligence in the open seas.
I think what Siro may be thinking of is the larger outrage at the guys in Israel who ran Pollard "theyre spying on us, they can't be our allies""A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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What circumstances are those? Facing zero opposition except for unarmed ships in international waters?I appreciate the naval experience brought here, but none of our sailors has fought in combat in anything like the circumstances the Israeli navy faced in June 1967, so while i value their opinions, its not dispositive.
Speaking of incompetence, the thing didn't even shoot back and they still failed to sink it!"The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.Comment
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I somehow doubt ensign Yifrach had much of a military career after that, but i dont know.Originally posted by Patroklos
It could have been a mistake, but an honest one. I think we have proven, however, that it was complete incompetence, not a mistake."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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Seriously LotM, just how much are the Israelis paying you to spout this drivel?
Is your name in reference to the fact that they used to pay you in German money before they switched to the Euro?Comment
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Like being in a shooting war against a power with a larger navy?Originally posted by Patroklos
What circumstances are those? Facing zero opposition except for unarmed ships in international waters?"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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So, they weren't engaged with it. A quick google search shows no other engagements.Like being in a shooting war against a power with a larger navy?"The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.Comment
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but hours before the Liberty incident, there was an explosion in El Arish that they THOUGHT was the work of the Egyptian navy.Originally posted by Patroklos
So, they weren't engaged with it. A quick google search shows no other engagements.
Look this is getting circular.
A. US Navy guys can judge what the Israeli Navy thought, cause of their experience
B. But they have no experience fighting with a larger navy, which is what the Israeli Navy thought was happening
C. No the Israeli Navy didnt think that
D How do we know that?
E. We know, because experienced US Navy guys tell us"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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