Thank you G-D! Immigration reform bill is pulled....

[DanS]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I dont have the moral outrage, but to say that we cant reduce the hiring of illegals because there is an informal labor market, seems silly. we could add SOME requirements to all employers of day laborers.

I presume if we PASS this legislation, there will be pressure to do just that, to prevent further migration of illegals.

Our economic life doesn't revolve around illegals, even though in some areas it's a sizable factor. Is everybody going to be inspecting the Social Security cards and filing a 1099 for the local plumber? Just seems ridiculous to assert.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Exactly. Plenty of excuses to arrest, inprison or otherwise influence any person/group involved.

Own goal?

[DanS]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
When something sounds like the 86 compromise which incidentally included the arguement of enforcement is shoved in front of me again, why shouldn't I be suspicious that those promises will go unfulfilled this time as well Dan? I'd like to not do this yet again in 20 years.

The problem I have with your position is that even if the Feds enforced the law reasonably aggressively and maintained the capacity to deal with illegals passed on to them from local law enforcement, you might have 1/10th the problem solved (perhaps more in your neighborhood). Local law enforcement is where the rubber meets the road on most of these issues and in my neighborhood they've got much bigger fish to fry. You aren't going to have local police in most jurisdictions create an adversarial relationship with the illegals. Just not going to happen, since it would break down social order.

I can't foresee any realistic scenario where you would be satisfied with the results of Fed enforcement.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Patroklos

Are you going to apologize for your racial outburst or not Oerdin? It really was out of line.

What racial outburst? I see you've lost the debate and know you're throwing out the red herrings.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I agree. Nobody's done anything to dispute my 10% number for the scale of the US underground economy. That's 1.4 trillion dollars a year on which taxes, FICA etc are not paid.

You have it backwards. They get jobs using fake social security cards. So they pay in but get nothing back.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DanS


Our economic life doesn't revolve around illegals, even though in some areas it's a sizable factor. Is everybody going to be inspecting the Social Security cards and filing a 1099 for the local plumber? Just seems ridiculous to assert.

You could have them inspect SS cards, but not file a 1099. Or you could have some kind of more formal process for hiring skilled workers, involving some kind of certification (remember union hiring halls?)

Obviously there will be a cost to any steps. Whether the benefit is worth the cost will depend on ones views of the benefits, and perhaps on ones own class interests.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Wonder what would happen if a couple of hundred suburban householders went to jail?

The law would be changed pretty fast?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by EyesOfNight


Yes. It's called American ingenuity.

It's called US government, not especially known for its ingenuity, efficiency, or accountability.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Patroklos

I have yet to see one criticism of it that doesn't amount to "meh, I can't be arsed to do it, ."

WTF? People have repeatedly brought up the economic reason, the you can't physically move and deport 12 million people, and the let's have the police solve real crimes instead of this crap explanations. That you've ignored three valid arguments and then claim you've never heard one valid argument shows you're not paying attention.

Let's assume you get your way, you put on your little arm band, and start loading 12 million people onto trains. You know that the legal co-workers will be complaining to the politicians, the media will be having a field day with crying children asking where daddy went, business owners will be screaming bloody murder because their profits just took a hit, and everyone else will be waiting in long lines at restaurants while their lawns look like crap. Illegals do most of the back room stuff (washing dishes, maids, nannies, cooks, etc), the dirty stuff which Americans don't want to do (picking produce, unclogging toilets, gutting farm animals for slaughter, etc), and they're willing to work much cheaper so we all get lower inflation and increased buying power.

I see we're looking at this from two totally different view points. You think Mexicans being here without papers (or maybe just Mexicans period) is the problem. In my view the problem is the government doesn't issue enough visas to keep up with demand and shortages in certain industries practically force employers to hire illegals to fill job vacancies. I see the laws as stupid, unenforcable, and the source of the problem. Most people in my area think the same as do most police officers who won't even bother with an immigration case because they're trying to stop real crime.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Own goal?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by DanS
Local law enforcement is where the rubber meets the road on most of these issues and in my neighborhood they've got much bigger fish to fry. You aren't going to have local police in most jurisdictions create an adversarial relationship with the illegals.

Might I ask how reporting people like these or even these would lead to visions of the apocalypse being visited upon local communities?

I can't foresee any realistic scenario where you would be satisfied with the results of Fed enforcement.

I'm curious what other laws you feel could be safely ignored because you feel its not worth the trouble of even attempting to enforce them. Theft? Being intoxicated while driving? What?

[Patroklos]

Own goal?

Absolutely not. As KH said, there is 1.4 trillion perhaps in untaxed economic activity, all the excuse one needs for the government to take enforcement seriously. Would pay for itself.

I don't care about "oh well then the corporate interests won't fund my campaign then," half the problem right there.

Our economic life doesn't revolve around illegals, even though in some areas it's a sizable factor. Is everybody going to be inspecting the Social Security cards and filing a 1099 for the local plumber? Just seems ridiculous to assert.

No, the owner/operator of the plumbing buisness does. That person has to file all sorts of things to start his buisness in the first place. If he is not then there are 20 other things to fine him on other than immigration status.

You have it backwards. They get jobs using fake social security cards. So they pay in but get nothing back.

No, you have it backwards. Buisnesses make money hand over fist by not paying minimum wage, not paying into healthcare, not having to adhere to OSHA standards, and not paying taxes. So illegals don't pay anything in (income tax) and the buisness don't pay anything in (their taxes) and both make money.

The law would be changed pretty fast?

They are the ones yelling loudest to enforce the laws in the first place.

[Kuciwalker]

Absolutely not. As KH said, ther eis 1.4 trillion perhaps in untakes economic activity, all the excuse one needs for the government to take enforcement seriously. Would pay for itself.

Keep thinking.

[Arrian]

No, you have it backwards. Buisnesses make money hand over fist by not paying minimum wage, not paying into healthcare, not having to adhere to OSHA standards, and not paying taxes. So illegals don't pay anything in (income tax) and the buisness don't pay anything in (their taxes) and both make money.

The illegals do pay into SS, though, don't they?

-Arrian

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Zkribbler

You have it backwards. They get jobs using fake social security cards. So they pay in but get nothing back.

It depends if they're working under the table or not. If they're working at a big employer then they're likely using a fake social security number though most of the rest are paid in cash so they're not paying taxes.

I'd say the 10% of the economy figure sounds about right. If we can legalize those people that's a lot of new tax payers contributing something more then they were before.