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Sealion, Anglo-German Alliance

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  • Sealion, Anglo-German Alliance

    I recently finished reading Berlin Diary by William Shirer, and I contemplated a couple of things.

    1) Did Hitler ever really intend to invade and conquer Britain? Or did he merely want to impress Britain enough in order to make it join him in a grand alliance? I believe the latter is a possibility. The lack of decisive intervention at Dunkirk, the lack of a real concerted effort to knock out the R.A.F. in August 1940 (I will return to this in a second), the immediate construction of coastal defences in France and lack of preparation in the ground forces in way of barges, transports, etc. are very odd decisions if you are after an invasion. Surely Britain's refusal of a peace in July didn't shock Hitler that much? Surely he didn't offer it thinking there was no point in diverting resources to Sealion because it was a dead cert this British would accept?

    Plainly the R.A.F. wasn't an easy nut to crack. Its strategy of not confronting enemy fighters, and spreading out its forces meant it could not be met in a decisive battle in the air, or on the ground as the Luftwaffe had done to the Poles and French. In spite of this the R.A.F wasn't in brilliant shape in late August, lacking primarily in pilots. Having said this neither was the Luftwaffe.

    The OKL and Hitler certainly didn't consider the bombing of London to be key to gaining air superiority. Perhaps the bombings were ordered to yet again demonstrate and impress upon the British the advantages to allying with Britain, as opposed to a mere reprisal. It was however a concession that air superiority would not be sought on the part of the Luftwaffe.

    War trials simulated by Sandhurst projected that without air superiority, invading Wehrmacht forces would be delayed at around about the G.H.Q. line by the time the Royal Navy arrived from Scapa Flow to block supplies, and thus thwart the invasion. Perhaps the OKW and Hitler suffered from the same problem Napoleon did in the early 1800s: Lack of key areas of superiority and a lack of willingness to attempt an invasion.

    Maybe Hitler didn't have the heart in risking an invasion of England? There are two points to consider here IMO. Firstly it hadn't been done since 1066. There was no prior example of a successful invasion on the scale of an invasion of the South Coast using modern equipment against coastal fortresses, air power, etc. The invasion of France and Benelux learned from the errors of the 1914 invasion, namely a pincer thrust undercutting the Anglo-Belgian defenders from the French, staying to the right of Paris when wheeling round, and it had better ability to keep supply and artillery on pace with the leading troops. Secondly, Hitler plainly had desires of a world dominated by the British and German peoples.

    It is the second point that I base this theory on. It is made clear in Mein Kampf that an Anglo-German alliance was desirable. Indeed, it is incredible to think of the power such an alliance would have had if, as Hitler would have ideally seen, it had existed at the turn of the century. The two biggest economies, the biggest army and the biggest navy, the biggest empire and probably the strongest European nation, joining together. The results would have been devestating for any nation or alliance against it, such were the complementary strengths each nation had. The invasion of the USSR in 1941 then, perhaps was not only about lebensraum, destruction of communism, and all the old cliches, but also to isolate Britain and leave it ally-less. Another plan in 1940 was a desperate plot to "inform" the US the Brits planned to destroy a liner, and blame it on the Germans as a second Lusitania, and then sink a ship afterwards and say "We told you so.". The actual sinking failed due to bad timing and luck, but it showed the desire for Germany to isolate Britain.

    If there was such a strategy to completely isolate Britain and make it stand alone, it failed, but perhaps this was the goal in the summer of 1940? Not to invade and enslave Britain, but to bring it around to the German way of thinking and create that Grand Alliance Hitler so dreamed of. Potentially it was this short sightedness that in the end, cost Germany the initiative gained in 1940.

    Any comments on this theory?

  • #2
    Some thoughts:

    Originally posted by Frozzy
    I recently finished reading Berlin Diary by William Shirer, and I contemplated a couple of things.

    1) Did Hitler ever really intend to invade and conquer Britain? Or did he merely want to impress Britain enough in order to make it join him in a grand alliance?
    I doubt the "alliance" thing. Maybe he rather hoped for some agreement to get a free hand in the east. After all, the "Anglo-American block" was seen as much a geostrategic competitor for Germany in the west as the "Bolshevist" Sov in the east. Leading, influential German geostrategists (Haushofer) of the 1930ies make that very clear.

    From some of Hitler's writings I get the impression he and others in Ger had a strange mix of admiration, envy and hate towards esp. UK, and to a lesser extent to the US.

    It is the second point that I base this theory on. It is made clear in Mein Kampf that an Anglo-German alliance was desirable.
    See above. There was a serious hate towards UK and US which both were seen by many of the Nazi elite as evil centres of "Jewish" capitalism, just like they spoke of "Jewish" bolshevism in the east.
    Blah

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    • #3
      Frozzy, do you by any chance have a link to a map of the G.H.Q. line south of London? I gather it followed the North Downs in Surrey, but I'm curious as to whether it continued into Kent as far as the Medway valley.

      So, something larger scale for the SE than this :

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      • #4
        And that map indicates...?

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        • #5


          But the map above could also depict something else we don't know yet
          Blah

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          • #6
            More static defense

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            • #7
              Hitler was naive and hadn't realized that what Britain wanted was to keep the balance of power in Europe, and certainly not an alliance with a powerful continental nation.

              Why did he make that judgement mistake ? Perhaps because in the eyes of a German, France was 'the' European power (second colonial empire in the world, winner of WW1), which led him to think that Britain wouldn't care who that power would be, as long as it's friendly. He hadn't realized that Britain allied with France because it was fundamentally weaker than Germany...
              In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

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              • #8
                TLDR Frozz

                Oncle Boris has pretty much hit the nail on the head though. Obviously Hitler would have picked the alliance had he had a real chance to get it but he never really had that's why they kept fighting.

                If certain irregularities at the western front (Dunkerque etc.) should turn out to be blamed on Hitler's naivete, then he never deserved to win that war in the first place. Other recent findings show the stupidity of the move against the USSR as well (from the perspective of the time, not with hindsight), so it's all a big ideological fustercluck.

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                • #9
                  I recall reading that Hitler admired England, and thought the english were like a " racially fine people"
                  I need a foot massage

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                  • #10
                    From some of Hitler's writings I get the impression he and others in Ger had a strange mix of admiration, envy and hate towards esp. UK, and to a lesser extent to the US.
                    On December 10th, 1940 Hitler made a speech in which he believed the democratic worlds and totalitarian worlds could not live in sync. One of them must be crushed and the other reign victorious. I believe Hitler's qualm with the UK was not with the British people but with Churchill and his cabinet.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ecthy
                      More static defense
                      In the circumstances of a seaborne invasion on a very narrow front with limited armour, static defence is a good idea.

                      The actual plans for the defence of the UK were quite clever and involved delay until a mobile force could be targeted on the invasion force.

                      I thought that the Sandhurst war game concluded that the Germasn would have been stopped even before they got to the GHQ line.
                      Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
                      Douglas Adams (Influential author)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Frozzy

                        I believe Hitler's qualm with the UK was not with the British people but with Churchill and his cabinet.
                        Well, the British people who weren't:

                        Jewish
                        homosexuals
                        Roma
                        black or mixed race
                        ethnic minorities
                        Jehovah's Witnesses
                        democrats
                        Socialists
                        Communists
                        Liberals

                        et cetera.
                        Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

                        ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

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                        • #13
                          I can't believe you left out jazz musicians.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Barnabas
                            I recall reading that Hitler admired England, and thought the english were like a " racially fine people"
                            We're a bunch of feckin' mongrels so any racial admiration he had would have been misplaced. What he did admire was the brutal and austere "public school" system which trained chaps up for empire. He supposedly modelled the Hitler Youth on it.

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                            • #15
                              He thought we were germanic though.

                              He thought invading Russia was a good idea though
                              Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
                              Douglas Adams (Influential author)

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