so where are all the folks who care about Lebanon?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Seriously though, it's a horrible situation . The people in the camps are ****ed. The Fatah terrorists are firing on them as they try to leave and the Lebanese have decided that they are ok as 'collateral damage' in their shelling.

You have to be with the Lebanese on this. Fatah is using human shields because they believe it will help them so the only thing the Lebanese can do is go ahead with the military operation and hope that this will deter future terrorists from using human shields. If they stop then every terrorist will take their own people as human shields knowing it will make them safe.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Yeah, the "camps" with multistory houses and satellite dishes

lolSettlements with electricity and running water lololol

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris


lolSettlements with electricity and running water lololol

you are right, they shouldnt be called settlements. Many so called settlements are walking distance from the center of "west" jerusalem, and are really just neighborhoods.

[GePap]

Re: Re: Re: so where are all the folks who care about Lebanon?

Originally posted by lord of the mark


I think the Lebanese govt has no real choice but to eliminate this group. I think they are entirely justifed in using means that do not deliberately attack civilians, but that do endanger civilians - unfortunately the terrorists tactics and the situation on the ground make that hard to avoid.

I just find it ironic that this is being done by the same Leb govt that complained about a similar approach by Israel last year.

The scale of the two actions is so vastly different that they can't be compared accurately. For exampe, last tiome I looked rockets were not being fired from downtown Beirut.

And why is it a surprise anyways? Lebanese probably hate the Palestinian refugees far more then Israelis.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: Re: Re: so where are all the folks who care about Lebanon?

Originally posted by GePap


The scale of the two actions is so vastly different that they can't be compared accurately. For exampe, last tiome I looked rockets were not being fired from downtown Beirut.

The Leb army has not said they will only go after weapons systems of Fatah Islam that can fire outside the camps. They have said that they will destroy Fatah Islam, IIUC.

[ZEE]

please sir... can i be Jewish too?

im sorry, i have always wanted to say that. please continue...
piece™

[GePap]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: so where are all the folks who care about Lebanon?

Originally posted by lord of the mark


The Leb army has not said they will only go after weapons systems of Fatah Islam that can fire outside the camps. They have said that they will destroy Fatah Islam, IIUC.

That still does not mean that this action is comparable to the air offensive against Lebanon. If you want to compare, the simple and obvious comparison is Israelis assault on Jenin and this assault.

The longer this goes on, the more unrest will spread to all the camps. if the lebanese army doesn't end it soon and with minimal blood, its going to get real messy.

[Sirotnikov]

That still does not mean that this action is comparable to the air offensive against Lebanon. If you want to compare, the simple and obvious comparison is Israelis assault on Jenin and this assault.

the jenin assault killed 48 people, around 90% of them armed combatants wearing fatigues.

Do you seriously think the Lebanese army will be as pin point surgical?


Heck, our missiles are more surgical than what Arab rivals do to one another.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

the jenin assault killed 48 people, around 90% of them armed combatants wearing fatigues.

Do you seriously think the Lebanese army will be as pin point surgical?

:ZZZ:

I am telling LoTM which comparisons he should be making, and which ones are silly.

Heck, our missiles are more surgical than what Arab rivals do to one another.

I am sure all Palestinian colletaral damage thanks you...

But anyways, the simple point is that the only people who treat Palestinians worse than Israelis is their "fellow Arabs."

[Sirotnikov]

I am telling LoTM which comparisons he should be making, and which ones are silly.

And you are being wrong.

Chasing unlawful combatants who hide inside civilian areas is the same in principle, whether Israel does it or someone else.

Only somehow, Israel is always wrong, even though tends to be more careful than the peace loving neighbours we have.

What ever tactical decision is used regarding weaponry is a different matter and depends on the threat posed.

I believe LOTM is discussing the principle. If you want to say that Israel used different weapons - ok.

I am sure all Palestinian colletaral damage thanks you...

Now now,
the Palestinians meanwhile had more dead innocent civilians this past month from Fatah-Hamas shootouts in Gaza, than of Israeli making. You lack perspective.

But anyways, the simple point is that the only people who treat Palestinians worse than Israelis is their "fellow Arabs."

Agreed that the fellow arabs treat palestinians worse.

I'm also quite confident that several nations have done less for palestinians than Israel.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Now now,
the Palestinians meanwhile had more dead innocent civilians this past month from Fatah-Hamas shootouts in Gaza, than of Israeli making. You lack perspective.

I lack perspective???

The current violence has been ongoing for almost six years. That is the relevant timeline, not the last month.

[RGBVideo]

Good catches all around

Originally posted by MOBIUS

5.6/10

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by GePap
I lack perspective???

The current violence has been ongoing for almost six years. That is the relevant timeline, not the last month.

The "current violence" has had phases and has seen 3 different cease fires, and several different military offensives.

It will soon be longer than the Oslo period (1994-2000). As such we can no longer lump it all together or else it looses meaning.

[lord of the mark]

if i was writing a book on urban warfare, obviously the Leb assault on this refugee camp would find an even closer analogy in Jenin than in the "2nd Lebanon war".


But Im NOT writing a book on urban warfare, merely pointing out some ironies (?) of our time. PM Siniora himself complained, bitterly, about Israeli actions last year, and now his army is doing something that is in many ways similar - attacking a "militant" group that is fortified in civilian areas, and may be deliberately using civilians as shields, and they are attacking it with the weapons at their disposal (in this case artillery, not air) and accepting that collateral damage to neighboring civilians will take place as a result.

The triggers were different, an attempt to pursue a bank robbery, rather than the kidnapping of a soldier. The international law/politics are different - a refugee camp whose autonomy is protected by a multistate agreement, rather than battle across an international frontier.

I find the situation ironic. I can well understand those who would emphasize different aspects of the situation than I do, to minimize or eliminate that "irony". I think GePap has done about as good a job as one could do in that direction, and I congratulate him.


I will not reassert the irony more than I have. At this point the situation on the ground is more interesting than a debate on irony.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Yeah, the "camps" with multistory houses and satellite dishes

Really makes you realise how long these people have been ****ed over by wars and kept out of their homes, doesn't it?


When you've got people being born, raised, and buried in refuge camps you know you've got a problem.