First Chinese Aircraft Carrier - When?

[Patroklos]

They form an "intelligent swarm". All but leading missile fly at 2.5 mach speed near the surface, exchange data with each other, doing coutermeasures and manoeuvres. If the lead missile is intercepted then one of the other missiles automatically takes on the lead role.

Intelligent swarm, yeah whatever. it doesn't matter which one is in the lead, with that speed and especailly if not headed straight for the target, you better shoot 30 or more (which is the original tactic, but your carrier doesn't have enough) or a cruiser/destroyer will not even need its PDs to get all of them.

2.5? SM2s and CIWS can get that, it would be a waste to use an ESSM or RAM on something like that.

Ah, famous American arrogance.

Care to go airframe for airframe???

[Serb]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


The question is if the aviation would stay in hte air long enough to relay target data.

JM

Considering that Shipwreck fly at 2.800 kmph while you carrier moves at 30 knots, you won't get to far away even if recon aircraft is already down. It's a pretty smart missile:

The missile itself selects and classifies the targets by their importance. It chooses the tactic of attack and plans how it is to be carried out. The missile's onboard computer is loaded with data on modern classes of ships to exclude errors in choosing its maneuvers to hit the selected target.

The missile-s computer also holds purely tactical data, for instance, on the type of ship formation. This data enables it to identify what lies ahead v a convoy, an aircraft group or a landing assault force v and to attack the main targets. The onboard computer also holds data for countering the enemy-s radio jamming signals, as well as tactical means for escaping air fire.

[Patroklos]

The CVs were the big dogs in naval warfare by WW2 but the BBs were still useful as surface screens and there were several times the BBs got into fights in WW2 even when CVs were around. Plus the BBs were put to great use during amphibious landings to soften up the landing zones prior to the actual landings. BBs continued in that last role right up to the 1991 Gulf War.

Exactly. It might have hurt some feelings not being the most important anymore, but they still had plenty of utility left in them.

As Serb has been saying about the Shipwreck, if a missile like that (only faster) could be combined with a reliable over the horizon targeting source (which the Russians don't have), a Kirov type major surface missile combatant would be formidable.

[Patroklos]

The missile-s computer also holds purely tactical data, for instance, on the type of ship formation. This data enables it to identify what lies ahead v a convoy, an aircraft group or a landing assault force v and to attack the main targets. The onboard computer also holds data for countering the enemy-s radio jamming signals, as well as tactical means for escaping air fire.

Translated from Star Treck techno babble, that means it goes for the largest/middle target.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
btw, Pat, I know that nm is probably being used correctly, but I can't help seeing nanometers whenever I read that

JM

that's because you are a physicist.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Az

No, you have to think of the area involved when talking about naval combat. Even for the Russians to find a Western carrier group in the relatively confined GIUK gap, you are talking about searching though 10,000nm if not 100,000nm of empty referenceless sea space.

Imagine China trying to find a carrier group outside the inner island chain. Or Iran in the Gulf of Oman. the distances are not small enough to just saturate with missiles.

well, imagine the US trying to find a carrier group. It's not just going to send it's fighters around. It's all the same trouble.

I'm not exactly sure how it's done. probably satellites.

[Dis]

Originally posted by unscratchedfoot
Why is this topic important? china would need a significant combined navy and air force to keep a CV alive in a shooting war. i don't think the Pentagon is too worried so why should you be?

you have to start somewhere. You have to start at 1.

[Dinner]

I honestly think Missile Frigates could be the poor (well medium rich) man's version of the carrier. If it could carry enough missiles and have some sort of extended radar coverage of the combat zone then they can still be plenty effective at hitting targets on land or at sea. Also not every navy needs to project power half way around the world. Think WW2 Italy, if the Italians had better naval bombers and land based radar then they could have easily ****ed up the allies naval forces in the Med. Plus land based fighters or interceptors could provide air cover.

It's just a question of how far away from home you want your navy to operate.

[Patroklos]

Missile frigates are not major combatants. Look at the state of Europe's navies to see what a fleet of frigates does for you. Luckly France and Italy are constructing a new Destroyer class, and England is not far behind.

Though there are so many cut corners on those projects we shall see what they yeild.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Intelligent swarm, yeah whatever. it doesn't matter which one is in the lead, with that speed and especailly if not headed straight for the target, you better shoot 30 or more (which is the original tactic, but your carrier doesn't have enough) or a cruiser/destroyer will not even need its PDs to get all of them.

Even Kirov doesnt have 30 Shipwrecks.
The original tactic was one missile - one ship. But since your carriers move at battle groups, it's one swarm per carrier battle group.

2.5?

Perhaps your Harpoon (0.85 mach) fly faster? When you'll create an anti-ship missile capable to fly at 2.5 mach, please let me know.

SM2s and CIWS can get that, it would be a waste to use an ESSM or RAM on something like that.

Phalanx? Don't make me laugh.

Care to go airframe for airframe???

Me, personally?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Translated from Star Treck techno babble, that means it goes for the largest/middle target.

Like USS Ronald Reagan for example.

[Patroklos]

Perhaps your Harpoon (0.85 mach) fly faster? When you'll create an anti-ship missile capable to fly at 2.5 mach, please let me know.

We don't need such toys, because we have an effective and compotent naval aviation community.

Phalanx? Don't make me laugh.

Note you did not address the RAM or ESSM, wonder why?

...using thrust vectoring to achieve a 50G manoeuvering capability....

ESSM

Lets see your shipwreck dodge that

[Patroklos]

Me, personally?

Name me a Soviet carrier based airframe that is anything but a deathtrap.

Like USS Ronald Reagan for example.

Sure, but that is how all such missiles work, don't pretend that missiles targeting functions are something special (though the link is cool)

[Serb]

Originally posted by Patroklos


We don't need such toys, because we have an effective and compotent naval aviation community.

You mean you don't need faster missiles 'cause you have enough kamikadzes?

Note you did not address the RAM or ESSM, wonder why?

Because, imho, Shipwreck is too fast and big for 20mm CIWS' ammo. Your new missiles might have a chance, I don't know. You are the navy man, I am not. My points were:
1) We have our own vision of what an air carrier should be.
2) Our approach have a right to exist since nobody proved in an actuall combat that it's wrong.
3) We have the best anti-ship missiles.

ESSM

Lets see your shipwreck dodge that

I don't have any data how much G can withstand a shipwreck, because the missile is classified. But since we were the pioneers of thrust vectoring and still make world's best thrust vectoring engines, I wouldn't luagh so loud if I were you.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Name me a Soviet carrier based airframe that is anything but a deathtrap.

Su-33.

Sure, but that is how all such missiles work, don't pretend that missiles targeting functions are something special (though the link is cool)

Form my understanding, the main feature is that "swarm" analyzes current situation and arranges and distributes targets to prevent all missiles hit the same (the largest) ship.