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"The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.
I'm just wondering, I thought with satellites the locations of surface naval groups on mission are pretty much known to anyone using the sats, so at least the bigger guys like Russia etc would have it easier?
I am not really sure how the sats work, beyond my pay grade. Though I would imagine they are as good if not better than aviation recon, but probably have thier own unique limitations.
"The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.
Not really, our carriers have alot more planes, and more capable planes (Hawkeyes) to search with. Not to mention no possible rival has more than one carrier, not too hard to keep constant track of it.
but only the hawkeyes are on the lookout, iirc. you don't send fighters far away, looking for them.
and IMHO, if tracking 1 is possible, so is tracking 12.
even if we go by satellite imagery of resolution similar to google earth, ships are easy to spot.
the only weakness of low orbitting satellites, is that now they're here, in 15 minutes they're somewhere else. But if you get enough of them up there, it doesn't matter.
Originally posted by Patroklos
If I have an aircraft that can fly out 300 miles, then launch an anti-ship missile another 80, then there is no shore/shipborne anti-ship missile that can beat that range.
Also, I can have an anti-ship missle with a 1000 mile range, doesn't matter because a shore or ship mounted surface search radar is only going to see max 30nm due to the curviture of the earth (though air search can see 250nm+). An airborne surface search radar can scan thousands of square miles at once, quickly (think soviet naval recon Bears in CW period). So no, aircraft are still the trump card in non littoral naval combat, and are very useful there as well.
Orel calss aircarrier have Russian Granit (NATO designation Shipwreck) missiles, which has a range of over 500km. Target data could be delivered from crarrier's aircrafts, helicopters, longrange aviation like Tu-95, A-50 or from satellites.
Why is this topic important? china would need a significant combined navy and air force to keep a CV alive in a shooting war. i don't think the Pentagon is too worried so why should you be?
Here is an interesting scenario to check out. The Vietnam war is cool.
It seems like the space on a Russian carrier used for missile systems and stuff would be better spent on more aircraft, fuel, and bombs for the planes. Just have cruisers or other ships specializing in defending the carrier and make the carrier better at actually launching aircraft.
but only the hawkeyes are on the lookout, iirc. you don't send fighters far away, looking for them.
Any plane can be a lookout. In a wartime scenario there would be CAPs up at intervals away from the carrier in the direction of the threat axis. Hawkeys maintaining their zones. S-2s out doing ant-sub patrols.
Then there are the surface combatants maintaining a perimeter as well.
And if we want to find a carrier group we think is out there, ELINT is really how we would find them. They could go dark but then we did find them they would be really screwed.
and IMHO, if tracking 1 is possible, so is tracking 12.
Imagine you are China. Imagine there is an American battle group somewhere between Japan and the Philippines. What area is that? How much area can one satellite survey in one pass? How long does it take to anaylize the data? When will the next sat be available to make a pass? And finally, where will a battle group moving at 25kts be in 24 hours (you don't know what direction they are going).
That last one is the most difficult part about locating ships, they move. 25kts (could be alot more), 24 hours thats a new search area with a radius of 600nm, and if you don't make contact with the next pass you basically have to start from scratch.
Orel calss aircarrier have Russian Granit (NATO designation Shipwreck) missiles, which has a range of over 500km. Target data could be delivered from crarrier's aircrafts, helicopters, longrange aviation like Tu-95, A-50 or from satellites.
The trick with using those is that one of those aircraft would have to have eyes on the carrier, and given the array of crap that serves as Russian naval aviation, not likely.
And we would probably shoot the missile down any ways, pretty old. Isn't it nuc tipped any ways?
Why is this topic important? china would need a significant combined navy and air force to keep a CV alive in a shooting war. i don't think the Pentagon is too worried so why should you be?
Exactly
"The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.
Originally posted by TheStinger
The Iowa battleship ( and other advanced types of ww2 such as Bismark and the British KG V class) whilst the height of technical advancment was still strictly speaking obsolete because of the advances in naval aviation
I wouldn't say they were obsolete for many years later, merely not the premier naval weapon anymore.
And I still think large surface combatants with modern missile weaponry like the Soviet BCGs are viable.
"The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.
Originally posted by Az
note, I am not speaking of kamikaze UCAVs, but of missiles, that would be still very cost effective, and remove the enormous logistics envelope of current naval aviation.
Well, a kamikaze UCAV is pretty much what a missile is.
Either way, sooner or later image recognition tech will be advanced enough you can have unmanned fliers scanning an area and indentifying and attacking targets independently, but we're not there yet.
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
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The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
Orel calss aircarrier have Russian Granit (NATO designation Shipwreck) missiles, which has a range of over 500km. Target data could be delivered from crarrier's aircrafts, helicopters, longrange aviation like Tu-95, A-50 or from satellites.
The question is if the aviation would stay in hte air long enough to relay target data.
JM
Jon Miller- I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
Last year (1999), the Kursk was on a patrol mission in the Mediterranean. And as the story was told at Russia's chief naval headquarters, the US 6th Fleet Command was compelled to dispatch everything it could to track down the Kursk, but they came up with nothing.
Finally, a huge circle 500 km. in diameter was drawn on the maps and US naval ships were strictly forbidden to enter this circle. By its presence alone, the Kursk paralyzed the whole US fleet, and compelled it to think about its security.
How can they restrict movement in such a large area when they are in the Mediterranean, so afaik not in Russian territorial waters?
Originally posted by Patroklos
The trick with using those is that one of those aircraft would have to have eyes on the carrier, and given the array of crap that serves as Russian naval aviation, not likely.
Ah, famous American arrogance.
Underestimation of enemy is always good for your enemy.
And we would probably shoot the missile down any ways,
How?
They form an "intelligent swarm". All but leading missile fly at 2.5 mach speed near the surface, exchange data with each other, doing coutermeasures and manoeuvres. If the lead missile is intercepted then one of the other missiles automatically takes on the lead role.
pretty old.
But still the best.
The ?Shipwreck¦ can be fired both from surface vessels and submarines. It has a range of over 500 kilometers. Its firing weight is 7 tons and it has a length of 10 meters. Its velocity is 2.5 mach (2,800 km/hr). The Granit is capable of carrying different types of warheads.
However, it is not only the excellent flight characteristics of the missile and the homing device's countermeasures that enable the ?Shipwreck¦ to preserve its unique combat capabilities, Yefremov points out.
The missile-s chief merit is its unique guidance system. It is based on ?artificially intelligent¦ electronic systems that enable the missile to strike a single vessel, according to the ?one ship v one missile¦ principle. The missile itself selects and classifies the targets by their ?importance.¦ It chooses the tactic of attack and plans how it is to be carried out. The missile-s onboard computer is loaded with data on modern classes of ships to exclude errors in choosing its maneuvers to hit the selected target.
The missile-s computer also holds purely tactical data, for instance, on the type of ship formation. This data enables it to identify what lies ahead v a convoy, an aircraft group or a landing assault force v and to attack the main targets. The onboard computer also holds data for countering the enemy-s radio jamming signals, as well as tactical means for escaping air fire.
After the missiles are launched in a volley, the designers explain, they decide by themselves which one will attack which target, and what kind of maneuvers must be carried out in accordance with mathematical algorithms in the behavior program.
The missile also has capabilities for outwitting attacking missile-interceptors. After the main target in the group of ships is knocked out, the remaining missiles attack other ships in the formation, excluding the possibility of one and the same target being hit by two missiles.
Originally posted by Patroklos
I wouldn't say they were obsolete for many years later, merely not the premier naval weapon anymore.
And I still think large surface combatants with modern missile weaponry like the Soviet BCGs are viable.
The CVs were the big dogs in naval warfare by WW2 but the BBs were still useful as surface screens and there were several times the BBs got into fights in WW2 even when CVs were around. Plus the BBs were put to great use during amphibious landings to soften up the landing zones prior to the actual landings. BBs continued in that last role right up to the 1991 Gulf War.
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