To mess with one is to mess with all

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


miss being able to undermine US - EU relations from outside the EU?

Yeah, with Schroeder and Chirac's departure, our chances here are greatly reduced.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Pekka
It takes two to tango. If they are undermining the relations, Russia isn't?

Russia has plenty of shortcomings. Whenever desired, one can always easily find a pretext for spoiling relations. So the real question is whether it is desired or not.

[Pekka]

Ok. That's reasonable enough.

As long as both parties understand, that cooperation benefits both whereas conflict hurts both.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Pekka
If you want to talk about undermining relations, how about not protecting embassies? How about attacking an embassador, and not doing anything about it either, but silently accepting all that happened? So what do you have on that, how exactly is EU undermining the relationship again?

Those are in reality just small details. Some ugly actions of a cornered player. Personally, I don't necessarily approve all of them.

I said, the Baltic trio + Poland are undermining our relations.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I think Russia is doing a fine job of harming it's relations with the EU without any outside help. It mainly is due to Putin attempting to trump up nationalism at home by making big deals out of ant hills abroad. But hey, I guess a politic's personal needs are more important then the geo-political position of the entire country.

As I said, Russia has really lots of drawbacks. You can always pick one from the vast list if your intention is to undermine the relations.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
\Oddly despite UKs widely noted lack of press freedom, ive been unable to find a major UK media outlet on the web that is consistently supportive of New Labour. Everyone is either leftie (Guardian, Indy, New Statesman, etc, etc) or Tory (Times, Telegraph, Economist, etc)

And you would have hard time to find a major Russian media outlet on the web that is consistently all supportive of Putin. You don't read Russian, unfortunately. So you've got to be content by what your media feed you.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


And you would have hard time to find a major Russian media outlet on the web that is consistently all supportive of Putin. You don't read Russian, unfortunately. So you've got to be content by what your media feed you.

Ok let me clarify. I cant think of a major UK media outlet that isnt A. Opposed to the Labour party on principle or B. thinks Tony Blair is an eevil poodle of the Neocons.

Maybe the Beeb, which is close to B, but more discretely.

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Oddly despite UKs widely noted lack of press freedom, ive been unable to find a major UK media outlet on the web that is consistently supportive of New Labour. Everyone is either leftie (Guardian, Indy, New Statesman, etc, etc) or Tory (Times, Telegraph, Economist, etc)

i disagree somewhat with your assessment. however leaving that aside, do you not think your impression of the british press might have something to do with the almighty ****-up that new labour has made of things?

rewind 10 years and you struggle to find a paper that didn't believe that blair and his new government could walk on water. the telegraph and the mail sure but besides them? hell the very right-wing sun has supported him at the last 3 elections.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I see many of you truly rejoice the evil Russkies being back. (I mean, being back as soundly evil.) Now you've got it easier than before: no need for a false polytical correctness, just bash it openheartedly.

And Poland + the Baltic trio, congrats. It seems you have finally succeeded in seriously undermining the EU-Russian relations. Your dream is coming true.

Russia cuts off oil from Lithuania when it sells its refinery to Poles, not Russians. Incidentally, a fire breaks out and destroys the refinery.
Russia temporily cuts off Poland from oil.
Russia launches an embargo on polish foodstuff.
Russia meddles into Estonia's internal affairs, cuts railway connections to it,
And these bastards dare to ask countries dare to complain to countries they are in union with!

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Heresson


Russia cuts off oil from Lithuania when it sells its refinery to Poles, not Russians. Incidentally, a fire breaks out and destroys the refinery.
Russia temporily cuts off Poland from oil.
Russia launches an embargo on polish foodstuff.
Russia meddles into Estonia's internal affairs, cuts railway connections to it,
And these bastards dare to ask countries dare to complain to countries they are in union with!

These are just clumsy moves of a cornered player who doesn't really know how to fight back in this situation. But, once again, these are in reality just small details. You should try to see a bigger picture, on a deeper level.

[Heresson]

Foodstuff is the main polish export to Russia, or one of the main. Oil is, as You well know, one of the most important imports of any country. These are not details.
The list of russian "clumsiness" is neverending. Like it criticises Poland for not opening russian-made exposition about USSR victims in Auschwitz, but does not want to correct one tiny bit - the map, which is showing german-ussr occupational boarder as the eastern boarder of Poland... It would be offensive and dumb even if it was an exposition in Russia, but to send such a stuff to be shown in a national museum in Poland and refusing to change it for 2 years or so is, as You may surmise, either complete imbecility or deliberate calling for anti-russian sentiment.

[MightyTiny]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


These are just clumsy moves of a cornered player who doesn't really know how to fight back in this situation. But, once again, these are in reality just small details. You should try to see a bigger picture, on a deeper level.

What is that deeper level then? And what are the actions of Eastern European states that have driven Russia to a corner, in such a way that it has no option but to use these aggressive and underhanded tactics?

The states Russia seems to be picking on are TINY compared to Russia, yet these little nations have cornered Russia?

[Heresson]

they joined NATO

[The Vagabond]

On the one hand, Poland + the Baltic trio greatly benefit from the economic ties with Russia. On the other hand, they don't miss a single opportunity to put a spoke in Russia's wheel, so to say. They do their best in destroying Russia's relations with the EU. Two of the Baltic states blatantly violate human rights, and the EU does nothing to stop it. You say those are tiny states? First, Poland is quite big. Second, they enjoy the umbrella of the powerful western organizations. They do their dirty tricks on Russia from under this umbrella. Otherwise why would they be so insolent. What Russia does is ugly and I don't approve it. On the other hand, I can't figure out better ways to fight this back. It's not normal that countries that economically so much benefit from you behave with you in that way.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by C0ckney


i disagree somewhat with your assessment. however leaving that aside, do you not think your impression of the british press might have something to do with the almighty ****-up that new labour has made of things?

rewind 10 years and you struggle to find a paper that didn't believe that blair and his new government could walk on water. the telegraph and the mail sure but besides them? hell the very right-wing sun has supported him at the last 3 elections.

ive only followed the UK press since 2001. At least at that time the Guardian and the Indy didnt seem to keen on New Labour. Ive never really looked at the Sun, US websites dont link to them all that much. I was also under the impression that the Times of London has supported the Tories, throughout this period, am I incorrect?