Are scientologists slacking off on their job?

[FrostyBoy]

Hey I am thinking I should join one, just to get an inside on what it's all really about, then leave. My worry is they will video tape me when I take a dump after I leave.

[Pekka]

Ecthy, I don't think we could be ever able to do that. I'm not even sure education would solve it. Of course some people would benefit from it, but it doesn't make most people secure for these kind of manipulations.

We can't map out a person as in this is how a person will function in situation x or y. We can have statistics, but still, we don't know in every single case what will happen. So no, I don't think it's doable.

I just think the only thing we can do is recognize clear scams and go after them with force. I don't think we could or should pursue cults or others that twists your thinking, unless there's something criminal going on in that cult. To me, that's an issue of freedom. Yes. I think people should have the freedom to **** up their brains. So I draw the line in criminal action, where crimes actively happen. Otherwise it's difficult to draw the line really.

edit: Ahh, you talk about reducing the level of vulnerability. OK, that's different. Yeah.. why not? But usually people who get hooked with these things are lacking something to begin with. Maybe they have some other problems as well.

[Ecthy]

That's the worrying thing Sn00py. To understand them, you have to become like them

[Meticulous Man]

How have YOU been brainwashed?

[Ecthy]

Pekka, it all breaks down to putting more state into this. Some people accuse Germany of restricting freedom of speech because we have a more or less harsh policy on Scientology. How much state do we want in this modern world? I can see people argue for total freedom. Do we want to allow the less educated to be caught?

Double strategy of strong state: education to responsible individual action, watching of manipulative groups.

[Pekka]

Well, I mean I think it's obvious that if the cult or group is engaging in illegal activities, the state needs to be strong and put its foot down. So, if we can show Scientology does engage in illegal activies as an organization (as opposed to individuals), and the whole structure and modus operandi is basically set up for scams and crimes... well, I just don't think it's a freedom of speech issue or freedom of religion issue.

I don't think it's possible to go after them the way they treat their people though, how they train them to be their little soldiers. But the money issues is one, plus I'm sure there's just tons of other little things that wouldn't survive the light of the day.

That said, I don't see it happening.

[Pekka]

I mean it's difficult do disband these things. Hey, if it was easy, Hells Angels wouldn't exist. But there's a difference with known criminal organizations and publicly being a member. THe difference is, the state does advocate against it, we see how it is criminal, we see it is dangerous and we should keep out of it if we want to be good citizens. As in, people who go there, they know what they're getting into.

In Scientology they most likely don't know what they're really getting into. Are we doing all we can to inform everyone about it? Also, I think we can't disband them, because we'd need to stamp them as organized crime and to be part of it would be a reason enough for some kind of charges, so I don't think that'll happen.

So basically we can inform people, do campagning. Why hasn't this been done, I do not know. In small scale in some places sure, but you really don't know as much as you'd know about criminal biker gangs. I mean they say they just like to ride bikes, but we know the difference between bike riding clubs and organized crime that some of them are. We also know what religions are, we can agree or disagree, but just like the criminal gang with bikes, we know Scientology is just that, it's not like the others that have similiar features and they claim to be just like those. They aren't and we know it.

So that plus you know, the state is certainly doing surveillance on these criminal biker gangs at all times, so I think surveillance should be done on Scientology as well and the key figures, actively looking for evidence for criminal stuff, because that's bound to happen. It's not persecution, it's common sense. We have a reason to believe they are doing illegal things and we have a good reason to think that, so we should follow up on it.

[Ecthy]

They're like trolls of the society.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Pekka
I mean it's difficult do disband these things. Hey, if it was easy, Hells Angels wouldn't exist. But there's a difference with known criminal organizations and publicly being a member. THe difference is, the state does advocate against it, we see how it is criminal, we see it is dangerous and we should keep out of it if we want to be good citizens. As in, people who go there, they know what they're getting into.

In Scientology they most likely don't know what they're really getting into. Are we doing all we can to inform everyone about it? Also, I think we can't disband them, because we'd need to stamp them as organized crime and to be part of it would be a reason enough for some kind of charges, so I don't think that'll happen.

So basically we can inform people, do campagning. Why hasn't this been done, I do not know. In small scale in some places sure, but you really don't know as much as you'd know about criminal biker gangs. I mean they say they just like to ride bikes, but we know the difference between bike riding clubs and organized crime that some of them are. We also know what religions are, we can agree or disagree, but just like the criminal gang with bikes, we know Scientology is just that, it's not like the others that have similiar features and they claim to be just like those. They aren't and we know it.

So that plus you know, the state is certainly doing surveillance on these criminal biker gangs at all times, so I think surveillance should be done on Scientology as well and the key figures, actively looking for evidence for criminal stuff, because that's bound to happen. It's not persecution, it's common sense. We have a reason to believe they are doing illegal things and we have a good reason to think that, so we should follow up on it.

What are your crimes, Pekka? Why don't you tell us about them? What crimes do you hide?

[Pekka]

My crimes are too complex for Scientologists to understand.

[Pekka]

And with that accusation, it boils down to this.. If I confess, what do I gain? I do not gain anything by confessing to someone who has no power to help me. Nor do I gain anything by confessing to someone with more power than me, because then I'll get into trouble for it. The truth shall not set me free, it's just a saying and is used for power.

So, I do not recognize the power of those nutcases over me, so they can't really make me confess. That's how meaningless they really are. What are my crimes? You figure it out, Mr. Hubbard follower and do something about it . Let's get into competition, let's see which one can ruin the other's credit first? Or make the other one persona no grata in public? How about losing some records, or getting into watch lists. COmpetiton time!1. .

[joncha]

Originally posted by Seeker
Scientologists follow the basic pattern started by 18th century gospel 'tent revivals' in the states, advertising companies in the 20s, and the nazis in the 30s for their indoctrination.

L.Ron Hubbard created Scientology from several sources:
-The cranky late 19th/early 20th century american 'alternative medicine' movements and their associated shysters
-His association with Aleister Crowley's "Ordo Templis Orientalis" group of occult oddballs assembled to support Crowley's dope habit.
-His own extensive experience with fraud and 'confidence' cons.

1. Identify and 'adjust' the message for your target audience, i.e. 'Jesus was so great! for christians, etc.' Tell 'em what they wanna hear.

2. Lovebombing: Used by finer cults everywhere..."I've never found people so full of joy and so totally accepting! It was the family I never had"

Other stuff used in parallel:

-Creating an 'Us against the Evil World' mentality
-Creating a 'Secret Code' (a shared symbology)
-Repetition
-Creating intricate and seemingly purposeless hierarchies, the purpose of which is to get individuals used to systems of conformity
-Gradually forbidding or circumscribing the targets freedoms (dress, food, excercise, sex, etc etc)
-Low=protein diets
-a successive ladder of success/revelation for initiates to 'go up' wherein the 'end-goal' is always just within but just out of reach. Allow in-group members to feel superior about ascending this meaningless structure (i.e. who is 'Anointed', in the 'Inner Circle', etc, Operating Thetan, etc)

Interestingly, there are many other groups which I would describe as cult-like, eg Amway. But Scientology, as the bizzare moneymaking con started by an irredeemable BSer who fell for his own propaganda, is brutal and murderdous.

People have probably been murdered or died of neglect in Scientologies 'RF' Re-education/punishment centers, and on the 'Sea Org' (the SS of Scientology are called the Sea Org). cruise ship.

Scientology, as a belief, is stupid and often has highly damaging impact on members/targets mental health.

Scientology, as an organization, should be as illegal as the Cosa Nostra.

Sounds like Eventis

[Meticulous Man]

"My HD is full of pira-ware! Please forgive me! "

[Pekka]

Aivo, dude, in today's paper, they had convicted someone for having 1.2TB of music and movies. Fines for the offense... 800 euro fine

TAKE THAT AMERICA!

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by joncha


Sounds like Eventis

I seem to've missed the lovebombing ...