Anyone ever done a triathlon before?

[KrazyHorse]

Maybe. I really do hate bike riding.

[Flubber]

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by KrazyHorse [/

point 4 is that a 22:30 1500 free is not particularly impressive. I think that trying to compare triathlon times to lap swimming is difficult but also that those local tris are not necessarily examples of elite swimming.

Not particularly impressive? For a regular or competitive swimmer, clearly not. BUt I will ask you and Lord Shiva this-- what proportion of the population under the age of 50 and over the age of 10 do you think could jump in the pool today and swim 1500m in 22:30 ?

The times are examples of what korn needs to do to be in the pack at a tri. I never alleged elite. If I wanted that I would look at the Triathlon World Cup.

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
.

It stands to reason, as the shortest time (by far) is spent in the water out of all 3 events. As far as I can tell, most of the race is won or lost in the bike ride (just from having watched a couple of them on TV).

I agree that at the elite level the time difference on the swim is the least crucial. The top athletes are all so close that the margin can be made up--- BUT the better swimmer may have a better ride and run because they expend so much less energy on the swim-- so your swim DOES influence your times in the other disciplines.

But irrelevent.Thats elite. For a newbie training up, the swim is the key. Most triathletes that didn't start as a competitive swimmer/ very good swimmer takle that view

[KrazyHorse]

Anyhow, to train for the swim I would do stuff like 3000m sessions in the pool every 2-3 days. Over the course of the tri, a 2 or 3 minute difference in the swim isn't going to mean anything, so the important thing is to just get comfortable swimming distance.

If you're a total novice swimmer (outside of paddling around the backyard pool) then you should get an okay swimmer to watch your technique. The important things to remember are:

a) Breathing. It's not intuitive, but when you breathe, turn your head both to the side AND so that your face is looking a bit toward your feet. This makes it a lot easier to get a clean gulp of air without rolling your whole body, which brings me to

b) DON'T ROLL YOUR WHOLE BODY. There is some roll to the ideal stroke, but many people actually roll a complete quarter turn each way every stroke (so that a line through both shoulders is perpendicular to the ground). This is a huge waste of energy

c) The stroke: when your hand enters the water it is a knife. Cut down into the surface of the water with the least possible cross section. Then cup your hand slightly and draw back in a wavy motion on the power stroke. On this part of the stroke you are trying to develop as much resistance as possible between the water and your hand. Everywhere else you are seeking to minimise that resistance.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Flubber


Not particularly impressive? For a regular or competitive swimmer, clearly not. BUt I will ask you and Lord Shiva this-- what proportion of the population under the age of 50 and over the age of 10 do you think could jump in the pool today and swim 1500m in 22:30 ?

5%? Maybe 10.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


5%? Maybe 10.

You are seriously deluded as to the fitness level of the general population

Take a look at any cross section of amateur tri events from pretty much anywhere

For example I see that the New York City triathalon had a requirement of a "Completion of a 1 mile open-water swim within the last three years in 50 minutes or less "
THats over double your pool time.

Since triathletes make up a much smaller proportion of the population than 5 to 10 % why would they set the qualification bar so very very far below that which you think 5-10% of the population could do without training

[Dry]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Maybe your triathletes are taking it easy for pacing, or maybe the swim is a lot rougher in the open (no kicks off the side every length), or maybe they're a bunch of geriatrics...

According to wiki swimming in open waters is indeed different from swimming in a pool.

Triathletes will use their legs less vigorously and more carefully than other swimmers, conserving their leg muscles for the cycle and run to follow. Many triathletes use altered swim strokes to compensate for turbulent, aerated water and to conserve energy for a long swim. In addition, the majority of triathlons involve open-water (outdoor) swim stages, rather than pools with lane markers. As a result, triathletes in the swim stage must jockey for position, and can gain some advantage by drafting, following a competitor closely to swim in their slipstream. Triathletes will often use "dolphin kicking" and diving to make headway against waves, and body surfing to use a wave's energy for a bit of speed at the end of the swim stage. Also, open-water swims necessitate "sighting": raising the head to look for landmarks or buoys that mark the course. A modified stroke allows the triathlete to lift the head above water to sight without interrupting the swim or wasting energy.

[Flubber]

I liked your swimming tips generally-- I took some stroke improvement type swim classess to help

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Anyhow, to train for the swim I would do stuff like 3000m sessions in the pool every 2-3 days.

Yes you would but do you understand that even a reasonably fit person (average fitness level) would find it difficult to do even 200m consecutively if they haven't swum much. Their form is so very awful that they exhaust themselves. Ifound once I improved my form, the improvement in speed and reduction in effort expended is remarkeable


Oh and I checked the Los Angeles triathlon to see how they do. http://www.y-events.com/05laoly.htm

Again lots of folks-- more than half the field-- are over 28 minutes. Even if you credited them with a 6 minute credit ( and the pros are around 2-4 minutes off pool times for the distance) for additional difficulty of open water swimming, they wouldn't make the 22:30 mark for the distance.

So either the swim is very very hard (much harder than in pool) which is even more reason to focus on it, or you are unrealistic in thinking that 5-10% of the population age 10-50 can do it when about half of the self-selected triathletes fail to meet that standard--


Oh and my selection of this triathlon or any triathlon group is not designed to statistically disprove your assertion. BUt one can use some deduction

If the median triathlete has difficulty meeting the 22:30 standard in a pool (an assertion that I would have to see more in-pool information to assess fully )-- the question then becomes whether the median triathlete is a better or worse swimmer than the 95th percentile of the population. I suspect that the median triathlete is far better than the average population

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Dry

According to wiki swimming in open waters is indeed different from swimming in a pool.

Triathletes will use their legs less vigorously and more carefully than other swimmers, conserving their leg muscles for the cycle and run to follow. Many triathletes use altered swim strokes to compensate for turbulent, aerated water and to conserve energy for a long swim. In addition, the majority of triathlons involve open-water (outdoor) swim stages, rather than pools with lane markers. As a result, triathletes in the swim stage must jockey for position, and can gain some advantage by drafting, following a competitor closely to swim in their slipstream. Triathletes will often use "dolphin kicking" and diving to make headway against waves, and body surfing to use a wave's energy for a bit of speed at the end of the swim stage. Also, open-water swims necessitate "sighting": raising the head to look for landmarks or buoys that mark the course. A modified stroke allows the triathlete to lift the head above water to sight without interrupting the swim or wasting energy.

None of that is any surprise. The real question is the the difference in times. That should vary by water conditions. For instance I understand there was an Alcatraz triathlon training swim that almost no one could finish due to a combination of wind, waves tide and current all acting against them. Conversely, those factors can speed you along.

My belief though is that open water swim times will generally be slower than what a person does in the pool but not by so much that a 22:30 pool time would not be an indicator od domeone that would be very much in the mix in the tri open water swim

[Flubber]

Bottom line outa all this stuff korn is that I would focus on the swim a lot and make sure to practice a few open water swims before your event.

If you can swim 1500m easily, then you can work harder on honing your bike and run

[korn469]

Originally posted by Flubber
Bottom line outa all this stuff korn is that I would focus on the swim a lot and make sure to practice a few open water swims before your event.

If you can swim 1500m easily, then you can work harder on honing your bike and run

That's good advice Flubber, and I will try to concentrate on doing just that. I have another question for everyone. I weightlift, and I was wondering if I can continue lifting as I train for this without any ill effects.