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"I am still confused as to why they chose to lie"

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  • "I am still confused as to why they chose to lie"

    No thread yet on the Jessica Lynch/Tillman family testimony? I'm not sure if this is the low point in Bush administration mendacity, but it is especially pathetic; the fact that the administration had to manufacture heroism points to just how debased their efforts are. The lion's share of the attention is going to Tillman's family, but I actually find Lynch's testimonty more moving; publicly repudiating her own "heroism" can't be easy, and her willingness to note that the Iraqis actually saved her life is more heroic than anything the chicken hawks attributed to her. There's also something particularly nasty about the fact that they were making this crap up about their war while getting ready to smear John Kerry's record in the war Bush, Cheney, and Rove all ducked.

    Panel Hears About Falsehoods in 2 Wartime Incidents
    By MICHAEL LUO

    WASHINGTON, April 24 — House Democrats burrowed into the histories of Pfc. Jessica D. Lynch and Cpl. Pat Tillman in a hearing on Tuesday, holding up the episodes as egregious examples of officials’ twisting the truth for public relations in wartime.

    They received help in making their case from witnesses who have mostly shied from the spotlight, Ms. Lynch and Corporal Tillman’s mother, Mary, and brother, Kevin, who enlisted in the Army along with him after the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001.

    “I am still confused as to why they chose to lie and tried to make me a legend when the real heroics of my fellow soldiers that day were, in fact, legendary,” said Ms. Lynch, speaking softly but firmly into the microphone as more than 12 photographers clicked away in front of her.

    Accounts from officials of Ms. Lynch’s bravery held the nation in thrall in the early stages of the Iraq invasion in 2003 after her maintenance convoy went astray near Nasiriya and she was taken prisoner. After her rescue, which was made into a television movie, she disputed those who said she fought off Iraqi soldiers until she was captured. She never fired a shot, she restated on Tuesday.

    The “story of the little girl Rambo from the hills who went down fighting” was untrue, she said.

    Kevin Tillman was scathing in his assessment of how his brother’s death in Afghanistan in 2004, which was later determined to be a result of American fire, was initially portrayed by the military as an act of heroism in the face of enemy fire.

    “A terrible tragedy that might have further undermined support for the war in Iraq was transformed into an inspirational message that served instead to support the nation’s foreign policy wars in Iraq and Afghanistan,” Mr. Tillman said.

    Representative Henry A. Waxman, Democrat of California and chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, promised to take his quest for answers in the case, which drew most of the questions from lawmakers, to the highest levels of the Bush administration.

    “We don’t know what the secretary of defense knew,” said Mr. Waxman, who has made himself a thorn in the administration’s side since Democrats took over control of the House in January. “We don’t know what the White House knew. These are questions this committee seeks answers to.”

    Mr. Tillman, who was posthumously promoted to corporal and awarded the Silver Star for valor, inspired legions after he quit his spot as a star defensive back for the Arizona Cardinals professional football team to be an Army Ranger.

    The Army recently completed two inquiries into his death. The investigations found that even though soldiers and commanders suspected almost immediately after the death that it was accidental fratricide, Corporal Tillman’s family was not notified about the true circumstances until more than a month later, a violation of Army rules.

    The report from the inspector general’s office in the Defense Department singled out four generals and five other officers for potential discipline but said that they had done nothing criminal and that there was no broader cover-up.

    The report was especially critical, however, of Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr., head of the Army Special Operations Command at the time of Corporal Tillman’s death. The document said General Kensinger most likely knew of the suspected fratricide before a nationally televised memorial service on May 3 that he and the Tillman family attended.

    The oversight committee had requested that General Kensinger testify on Tuesday, but he declined through a lawyer, citing his constitutional right to avoid compelled self-incrimination.

    Committee members heard from Specialist Bryan O’Neal, who was with Corporal Tillman when he died. Specialist O’Neal said he knew immediately that it was American troops that had killed his comrade and that he wanted to tell Kevin Tillman, who was a specialist in the same platoon, right away. But he was barred from doing so, he said, by his battalion commander, Lt. Col. Jeff Bailey.

    “I was ordered not to tell him what happened,” he said, explaining that it was made clear that he “would get in trouble.”

    Specialist O’Neal also said he did not write statements attributed to him in the recommendation for Corporal Tillman’s Silver Star about “engaging the enemy.”

    Thomas F. Gimble, acting inspector general at the Pentagon, said his investigators were unable to determine who had altered the statement.

    “Somewhere in the approval chain, it got edited,” Mr. Gimble said.

    Democratic members of the committee devoted much time to an urgent memorandum sent by a top special operations commander, Maj. Gen. Stanley McChrystal, to other high-ranking commanders a week after Corporal Tillman’s death. General McChrystal is now a lieutenant general.

    The memorandum said a preliminary investigation was likely to find that American fire caused the death. The message urged them to pass on the information to President Bush, the secretary of the army and others.

    The Tillmans said they believed that Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld must have known the truth early, a contention that Army investigators said they had failed to establish. “It’s a bit disingenuous to think that the administration did not know about what was going on, something so politically sensitive,” Kevin Tillman said. “So that’s, kind of, what we were hoping you guys could get involved with and take a look.”
    House Democrats burrowed into the histories of Pfc. Jessica D. Lynch and Cpl. Pat Tillman in a hearing, holding up the episodes as egregious examples of officials twisting the truth.


    Jessica Lynch
    Kevin Tillman
    Speaking truth to power
    This whole f*cking administration
    "I have as much authority as the pope. I just don't have as many people who believe it." — George Carlin

  • #2
    Isn't this kind of like getting upset about the fact that war includes shooting the enemy until they die?

    Is Lessica Lych a hero or not (as in just an ordinary soldier) is debatable. I don't think this is an important question at all. She got captured, she got released. In some general sense she's a hero for serving, period.

    However, the notion that there is no propaganda or certain images people want you to have when it comes to war and your side in it, it's extremely trivial. The most important propaganda is done on your own people. That is to keep your spirits up, your enemy the bad one, and to support the support. When people get caught doing it, is this bad, is this somehow condemnable? I don't think so, because simply this happens all the time. So no, I don't think it's such a big deal. People need hero stories, so you need to look for them and you can always beef up some story to make it a bigger one.

    In short, I don't know what the problem here is.
    In da butt.
    "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
    THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
    "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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    • #3
      Unlike Pekka, I do see the problem with lying.
      http://www.hardware-wiki.com - A wiki about computers, with focus on Linux support.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Thue
        Unlike Pekka, I do see the problem with lying.
        Well someone did lie to a man's family about the manner of his death in order to spare themselves emberassment. That does deserve some scorn at least.
        I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
        For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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        • #5
          Thue, so you have problem with politics as well. Well, I do too.

          It is not so much that I agree with lying or accept it. It's more that none of this is really a surprise, and do you not see how things in general work, as in do you not realize you are the subject of propaganda. Just like I am. Just like everyone else is.
          In da butt.
          "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
          THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
          "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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          • #6
            Yeah, lying to the family of the fallen soldier is pretty low.
            Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?

            It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
            The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok

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            • #7
              What I do find surprising is the integrity of these individuals. You're a hero, a bigger hero than others, you can possibly score a lot of money from this fame, but now you come forward and say well, this didn't go down like this and we're setting the record straight. That's like giving your free life long meal ticket away just to set it straight.

              In itself I see that as having high integrity, but then again I see that as something stupid Depends I guess. But sure, to these soldiers.

              Anyway, what I mean is, I do not understand how normal warfare operations are now somehow bad, or worse than before. As in, if I was in charge of some kind of war operation, I'd definitely tap into a story that has potential, not necessarily fabricating it, but you can be damn sure if there's a hero story to be told, it would be told, loud and clearly. YOu need to beef up your own and demonize the enemy a bit.

              It's rather a question of is this war a war to be fought or a cause not worthy of it, or even a mistake.



              EDIT: Ohh, they lied about someones death like that to the family itself? Well, that's definitely bad.
              In da butt.
              "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
              THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
              "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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              • #8
                Rufus, the story itself says that noone knows what the Bush admin knew and when they knew it. So your conclusion that they lied is a bit premature.
                http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ned
                  Rufus, the story itself says that noone knows what the Bush admin knew and when they knew it. So your conclusion that they lied is a bit premature.
                  I'm with Kevin Tillman: there's no way Rumsfeld didn't know; that's not how government in general, but especially not this administration, works. And ditto Lynch; hell, when somem liberal media outlets attempted to report her true story, including the heroic Iraqis, the Bushies denied it and questioned the patriotism of anyone who would suggest that the official version of events wasn't true.
                  "I have as much authority as the pope. I just don't have as many people who believe it." — George Carlin

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                  • #10
                    OK, but I also think the higher-ups may have just been supporting the troops.

                    But, if I were Bush, I'd certainly like to see some heads roll if he or Rummy were lied to. His lack of action in this regard is telling indeed.
                    http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                    • #11
                      You know, the police normally don't tell a murder victims family all the details either.

                      Sparing a family the details and letting them believe that their loved one fell as a hero is as old as war and militaries themselves. How many parents during D-day got a message saying their son died before he got out of the boat? Or that he drowned because his amphibious tank wasn't so amphibious? Or the opening artillery barrage had a few defective rounds that fell short?

                      Grow up. And I am still not sure why people thing the Prez and the SecDef have an omniciet knowledge of the actions of 5+ million military personel. Most of you probobly don't know what your kids did last night. Well I know why, its so they can *****.
                      "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                      • #12
                        Hmm government using propaganda during war time, what a novel concept.
                        This has been happening since the dawn of time.
                        I'm sure every World War II movie (that was made during or right after the war) were 100% accurate.
                        The governement reviewed and sanctioned almost all of them. Hell, look at the propaganda that was in bugs bunny cartoon during the wartime.

                        The only difference is that, in general, WWII was a more popular war. (maybe because of all the propaganda)

                        So as far as I'm concerned people that are over reacting to this really are just using it as another excuse to bash the administration.
                        It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
                        RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

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                        • #13
                          Yet, when one suggests that something the Admin or pro-admin groups say might be propoganda, one is labeled traitor.

                          Then, when it comes out that it *was* propoganda, it's all "well, duh, it's wartime, propoganda is normal."



                          -Arrian
                          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Arrian
                            Yet, when one suggests that something the Admin or pro-admin groups say might be propoganda, one is labeled traitor.

                            Then, when it comes out that it *was* propoganda, it's all "well, duh, it's wartime, propoganda is normal."



                            -Arrian
                            Of course. It's ALL propaganda, even when the war is over.
                            I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                            - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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                            • #15
                              The war is going to end? YOU TRAITOR!

                              -Arrian
                              grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                              The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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