Why the world is a better place than before

[Flubber]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Duh, for cold I didnt mean comfort, I meant the abundance of food per acre. Which has to be less in the subartic than it was in say, Mesopotamia circa 15000 BP.
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Agreed but I am not trying to grow a population-- I am just talking about the fact that a modern person has the choice to "drop out" of the rat race and live a fairly subsistence lifestyle.

IN interior Newfoundland you can easily catch two fish a day for a small group pretty much indefinitely

Originally posted by lord of the mark




HG isnt necessarily easy to pull off. When it IS pulled off, it historically involves less hours per day of work than agriculture - but if the climate is such as to reduce food availability per acre, it may well involve as much or more hours of work.
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Depends-- I might fish for a few hours one day since its relaxing and not much work anyway but on most days I would expect to catch enough fish in minutes. berry picking would be more time intensive and the most work would be in the early days when I would have to scout for the best blueberry, partridgeberry areas--

I would stuill lack veggies and thats where my cheating by buying some supplies would come in

[Flubber]

Also when you think about it we have a lot of urban subsistence folks out there now. They live mainly off the charity of others and they have a very simple life. There are stresses of getting food and shelter every day but they pretty much know that food and shelter will be there.

Are the people who love the idea of a HG lifestyle so much also saying that the life of a homelss personn might be pretty good?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Flubber
Also when you think about it we have a lot of urban subsistence folks out there now. They live mainly off the charity of others and they have a very simple life. There are stresses of getting food and shelter every day but they pretty much know that food and shelter will be there.

Are the people who love the idea of a HG lifestyle so much also saying that the life of a homelss personn might be pretty good?

I think there must be some. OTOH I dont know that begging is as stress free as berry picking, or even hunting. Depends on you personality I guess.

Of course the main stress a homeless person faces is that of violence to his person. One of the main reasons many dont like to be in shelters. Of course violence is also a threat in HG societies, esp when different bands come together.

Again, for most of us to go "homeless charity case" would mean pretty much giving up on our existing social networks.

It would also mean big self esteem loss. An HG is living with other HGs just like himself. Hes not confronted every day with folks who look down on him, much less have to beg from them.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
Are the people who love the idea of a HG lifestyle so much also saying that the life of a homelss personn might be pretty good?

No. Being homeless sucks and it's very different.

There are many things about living in a hg society that sucked. I'm not saying it was utopia. There were very good things about it. For example, you didn't have to have a boss. Personally that's a really big plus. Most of my bosses really sucked. And I can imagine that there are worse bosses than the ones I had.

What you are talking about, being wealthy, and dropping out of society, is however, very ideal. You could have the best of both worlds. I'm sure some wealthy people, who prefer more solitude do live that way. I think I would at least go for very long hikes, so long as I could find people to do with me.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Of course the main stress a homeless person faces is that of violence to his person. One of the main reasons many dont like to be in shelters. Of course violence is also a threat in HG societies, esp when different bands come together.

I would never see it as an ideal life . . . but if no responsibility is your thing, it meets that test. I would never say it is stress free.

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Again, for most of us to go "homeless charity case" would mean pretty much giving up on our existing social networks.

Yes quite probably-- unless they joined you. But thats the tradeoff- If someone wants the simpler life some of their more complicated relationships probably disappear

Originally posted by lord of the mark


It would also mean big self esteem loss. An HG is living with other HGs just like himself. Hes not confronted every day with folks who look down on him, much less have to beg from them.

Well a homeless could choose to work occassionally instead of beg.

I am not advocating this lifestyle but for those that claim the simplicity of a HG type lifestyle is superior tomodern life, I wonder if a bastardized version of that lifestyle is available even in cities.NO regular job, no regular committments-- live from day to day with what the environment provides-- If we assume a warmer climate like california, perhaps the shelter needs would be modest and you could wander from day to day . . . content if you got enough to fill your belly


Kid ?? what do you think?

Ludd? I'm thinking you would like this only if we first raze all ther cities and reduce the population of the earth by a factor of 1000

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
Kid ?? what do you think?

I think a lot of homeless people live like they do because it's a kind of freedom for them, but it's really nothing like living in a hg society.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Flubber

I would never see it as an ideal life . . . but if no responsibility is your thing, it meets that test. I would never say it is stress free.

well being an HG aint responsibility free. Youre responsible to go out and hunt, to feed the kids, and to contribute to the band. Its just, well a simpler kind of responsibility. Youre to do list isnt very long, the tasks dont have that many complex paths, and the time to do them isnt that long.

Yes quite probably-- unless they joined you. But thats the tradeoff- If someone wants the simpler life some of their more complicated relationships probably disappear

If I became a hollywood star, or a Republican pol, or a famous Imam some of my relationships would disapear. The issue is the dramatic change in lifestyle, not the intrinsic aspects of anyone. If I STARTED as an HG, or joined a functioning HG society at an early age, Id have some very intense relationships, perhaps more so than in my current world.

Well a homeless could choose to work occassionally instead of beg.

Probably couldnt live on it though - having an address, being able to wash regularly, etc help with getting employment. The local illegal immigrant day laborers whose main goal seems to be to repatriate money, nonetheless always get some roof over their heads. I assume theyre pursuing a rational strategy.

I am not advocating this lifestyle but for those that claim the simplicity of a HG type lifestyle is superior tomodern life, I wonder if a bastardized version of that lifestyle is available even in cities.NO regular job, no regular committments-- live from day to day with what the environment provides-- If we assume a warmer climate like california, perhaps the shelter needs would be modest and you could wander from day to day . . . content if you got enough to fill your belly

I think its a corner solution problem, flub. Living on the margins of a modern society is not the same as a full HG lifestyle by a long shot. Thats why aborigenes, Native Americans, etc who went from full HG lifestyles to "irresponsible" life on reservations, as charity cases, etc, etc generally thought they were getting a raw deal. I dont think you can prove "HG nostalgia" wrong by hitting over kid or Ludd over the head for not sleeping in a park, or even for not lighting out to Newfie.

Ludd? I'm thinking you would like this only if we first raze all ther cities and reduce the population of the earth by a factor of 1000

While I dont agree with Ludd, as far as testing the desirability of the HG lifestyle, this wouldnt be an unreasonable demand.

Flubb, Being a pet engineer, coming home to steak and wine and family, may be a wonderful lifestyle. In two thousand years, when everyone is living on a solar powered space station, and your distant descendant is offered the chance to give up family, and prospect for oil in the waste dumps of the space stations, begging to supplement their paltry incomes, in a world without the structures, status, even culture that makes your life today meaningful, will their refusal to live their stress filled yet familiar solar powered world prove yours is inferior?

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Flubber

I would never see it as an ideal life . . . but if no responsibility is your thing, it meets that test. I would never say it is stress free.

well being an HG aint responsibility free. Youre responsible to go out and hunt, to feed the kids, and to contribute to the band. Its just, well a simpler kind of responsibility. Youre to do list isnt very long, the tasks dont have that many complex paths, and the time to do them isnt that long.

Yes quite probably-- unless they joined you. But thats the tradeoff- If someone wants the simpler life some of their more complicated relationships probably disappear

If I became a hollywood star, or a Republican pol, or a famous Imam some of my relationships would disapear. The issue is the dramatic change in lifestyle, not the intrinsic aspects of anyone. If I STARTED as an HG, or joined a functioning HG society at an early age, Id have some very intense relationships, perhaps more so than in my current world.

Well a homeless could choose to work occassionally instead of beg.

Probably couldnt live on it though - having an address, being able to wash regularly, etc help with getting employment. The local illegal immigrant day laborers whose main goal seems to be to repatriate money, nonetheless always get some roof over their heads. I assume theyre pursuing a rational strategy.

I am not advocating this lifestyle but for those that claim the simplicity of a HG type lifestyle is superior tomodern life, I wonder if a bastardized version of that lifestyle is available even in cities.NO regular job, no regular committments-- live from day to day with what the environment provides-- If we assume a warmer climate like california, perhaps the shelter needs would be modest and you could wander from day to day . . . content if you got enough to fill your belly

I think its a corner solution problem, flub. Living on the margins of a modern society is not the same as a full HG lifestyle by a long shot. Thats why aborigenes, Native Americans, etc who went from full HG lifestyles to "irresponsible" life on reservations, as charity cases, etc, etc generally thought they were getting a raw deal. I dont think you can prove "HG nostalgia" wrong by hitting over kid or Ludd over the head for not sleeping in a park, or even for not lighting out to Newfie.

Ludd? I'm thinking you would like this only if we first raze all ther cities and reduce the population of the earth by a factor of 1000

While I dont agree with Ludd, as far as testing the desirability of the HG lifestyle, this wouldnt be an unreasonable demand.

Flubb, Being a pet engineer, coming home to steak and wine and family, may be a wonderful lifestyle. In two thousand years, when everyone is living on a solar powered space station, and your distant descendant is offered the chance to give up family, and prospect for oil in the waste dumps of the space stations, begging to supplement their paltry incomes, in a world without the structures, status, even culture that makes your life today meaningful, will their refusal to live their stress filled yet familiar solar powered world prove yours is inferior?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
well being an HG aint responsibility free. Youre responsible to go out and hunt, to feed the kids, and to contribute to the band. Its just, well a simpler kind of responsibility. Youre to do list isnt very long, the tasks dont have that many complex paths, and the time to do them isnt that long.

All true -- If all someone yearns for is a "simpler life" it is possible with not that much resources. I could buy a place in a remote town-- or a cabin in the woods and live with very few responsibilities-- arguably fewer than a HG

Obviously this doesn't work on a large scale and to some extent, people do this all the time-- They work for a while and then retire somewhere-- I could retire now at age 39 if I wanted a small cabin

Originally posted by lord of the mark

. The issue is the dramatic change in lifestyle, not the intrinsic aspects of anyone. If I STARTED as an HG, or joined a functioning HG society at an early age, Id have some very intense relationships, perhaps more so than in my current world.

True-- But the question is whether things are 'better" now than in the past. I believe its relevant to the question to see what other choices people COULD make-- I think the facts that people do not make certain choices ( assuming they are available to them) means they choose something else

Simpler lives are available to many many city dwellers that COULD exist and live in rural or remote areas. BUt many people CHOOSE city life-- The reasons may be societal or family pressures but they do CHOOSE it.

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Well a homeless could choose to work occassionally instead of beg.

Probably couldnt live on it though - having an address, being able to wash regularly, etc help with getting employment.

Here there is ample work for pretty much anyone that can show up sober. But leaving that aside, a homeless person can survive with little to no income here (not well)-- The shelters here provide meals to everyone that shows up-- There are not enough beds in the shelters but they have criteria to open up emergency shelters when the temp drops too much. Clothing is regularl;y donated

I don't claim its a good life but a person can survive on pretty much nothing.

Originally posted by lord of the mark

I think its a corner solution problem, flub. Living on the margins of a modern society is not the same as a full HG lifestyle by a long shot.

I never said it was the same-- I do see some paralells though

Originally posted by lord of the mark I dont think you can prove "HG nostalgia" wrong by hitting over kid or Ludd over the head for not sleeping in a park, or even for not lighting out to Newfie.

I don't intend to prove them wrong-- LOts of people choose to live in different ways. While I think some of the comments here are fairytale idealistic as to how well HG's lived I don't care to research to dispute them.

I am curious though as to how people would view living in a subsistence way right now-- whether within but at the fringes of modern society or by escaping it. I wondered if that was attractive. I see some attraction to it and I suspect so do the millions who vacation in spots designed to "get away from it all" (even if for a short time)

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Flubb, Being a pet engineer, coming home to steak and wine and family, may be a wonderful lifestyle.

I'm not an engineer.

As for my lifestyle . . . it suits me. I enjoy my life. Could I enjoy living in a band of 30 without modern amenities? I probably could but since I have THAT choice right now, I find the mere fact that I have that choice to mean that my life is better than if I were forced into one of the options.

Could the life of a HG 40K years ago be superior. To me now, NO. If you could erase my memory of all modern things , could I enjoy life as much in that scenario as I do in this one? maybe

I'm all about choice-- If I hated the city rat race so much I can and would do something else. Some of the people that talk so much about oppression right now never get that they have lots of choices . They just choose not to see them

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Flubber

Are the people who love the idea of a HG lifestyle so much also saying that the life of a homelss personn might be pretty good?

Yes. The life of a homeless person can be pretty good.

However, it's important to remember that hunter gatherers having better lives was not my whole point. The other part of my point, and perhaps the more important one, is that that it is a sustainable life style, while ours is not. Becoming homeless isn't going to undo what has been done by our culture, nor will it make it disapear. Urban sustainance lasts only as long as civilization does. While it's good to take advantage of the waste that cities produce, in the long run, it is better to find ways of sustanance that can be maintained after the collapse.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Flubber

I am not advocating this lifestyle but for those that claim the simplicity of a HG type lifestyle is superior tomodern life, I wonder if a bastardized version of that lifestyle is available even in cities.NO regular job, no regular committments-- live from day to day with what the environment provides-- If we assume a warmer climate like california, perhaps the shelter needs would be modest and you could wander from day to day . . . content if you got enough to fill your belly

Sounds good to me. I've met people who do exactly this.

By the way, there's alot of talk here about begging - it's not the only way to get food. Dumpster diving and soup kitchens are, I'm sure, a much better source of food. Begging or busking is mainly for money - good for emergencies or to get things that can't be easily found or stolen.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Flubber

I'm all about choice-- If I hated the city rat race so much I can and would do something else. Some of the people that talk so much about oppression right now never get that they have lots of choices . They just choose not to see them

Im not talking about oppression. Im talking about the realities of HG life vs modern life. And no, the choice of an HG life is NOT open to you. I think you overlook how much is foreclosed by ones life status quo Im thinkning of a quote by Saul Bellow reflecting on the life of a small town judge in the Berkshires "easier to be a Jewish Cardinal in Paris, than a Jewish judge in Stockbridge" or something like that.

It might be fun to be a physicist. But Id have to turn back the clock 30 years, to when I dropped out of AP math in High School. Just as to have a full HG lifestyle, Id have to start in childhood, learning all the skills and ways of the HG lifestyle. That I dont choose to be a homeless person in DC, or a blue collar drifter in Canada, says no more about the HG lifestyle than does my reluctance to drop my job and take classes to become junior lab tech at a physics lab say anything about the desirability of life as a PhD physicist.


The choice just isnt there. Its a path not taken.

So the choice as a way of testing someones beliefs about HG just doesnt work. We are left with, actual research into actual HG lifestyles. With all the limitations of that research.

And I think you confuse the issue by mixing "subsistence" and HG. While most HGs historically were subsistence (although some modern ones are not) for the last few thousand years most folks living on subsistence havent been HGs.

[Flubber]

LOTM

I think you are inferring intent I do not have. While I think that some people on here have been a bit idealistic about how good a HG lifestyle would be, I can't be assed to do the research to dispute them.

I also acknowledge ( as if it needs saying) that a person today CANNOT be a HG as they were 40K years ago since they will always have the knowledge of the the modern ways unless you can magically erase their memories.

BUT what I do say is that if it is the simplicity of the HG -type lifestyle that is attractive, there are ways to do that either in or around modern society. IT would not be a "HG Lifestyle" but I don't think people were yearning to kill an animal with a primitive spear, I just understood a desire for a less complicated life. That CHOICE is available.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Flubber
LOTM

I think you are inferring intent I do not have. While I think that some people on here have been a bit idealistic about how good a HG lifestyle would be, I can't be assed to do the research to dispute them.

I also acknowledge ( as if it needs saying) that a person today CANNOT be a HG as they were 40K years ago since they will always have the knowledge of the the modern ways unless you can magically erase their memories.

BUT what I do say is that if it is the simplicity of the HG -type lifestyle that is attractive, there are ways to do that either in or around modern society. IT would not be a "HG Lifestyle" but I don't think people were yearning to kill an animal with a primitive spear, I just understood a desire for a less complicated life. That CHOICE is available.

1. Its not the knowledge of the modern way of life thats the problem. Its the LACK of knowledge of the HG way of life. I suppose I could learn to tell which plants are poisonous, with some study. Learning to hunt well with bow and arrow would be harder. Learning how to get along with folks in a tiny band, might be close to impossible for someone who hasnt grown up that way. This is esp true as the choice of HG niches is so narrow. One hears of cases of whites going native with HG tribes in North America in the 19th c, but most of that was in areas where HG lifestyles are no longer possible (not enough wild bison anymore , for ex)


2. certainly its possible to simplify ones life, and it doesnt always require anything as drastic as moving to a cabin. If you can withstand social pressures (see the thread where I ask for advice on buying a TV - Asher is almost frothing at the mouth at the idea that I dont want to spend more than $500 on a TV set. Evidently SDTV instead of HD is too much the simple life, and draws derogatory comments)

3. But i still think theres a corner solution problem. Arguably living without an HDTV, but still with all the other complexities of modern life, (to take a trivial example) is less desirable BOTH than a more completely simple life, AND then a more fully complex consumerist life.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by General Ludd


Sounds good to me. I've met people who do exactly this.

By the way, there's alot of talk here about begging - it's not the only way to get food. Dumpster diving and soup kitchens are, I'm sure, a much better source of food. Begging or busking is mainly for money - good for emergencies or to get things that can't be easily found or stolen.

I've eaten in soup kitchens here in the US. The good thing is that I lost weight. The bad thing of course is that the food was horrible. It might be better in other areas. If you have a house you can get groceries at charities. Dumpster diving I've never done. I think the mentally ill mostly do that, but I've heard that others do that and eat very well. Begging I've never done either, but I know for sure that people do it for a living, not just in case of emergency, and some people make more than minimum wage.