How do you, as a meat-eater, justify the violence inherent in your food?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
No, its just the opposite, they have to be killed with a single blow. Which in part, in origin, was to avoid cruelty. However today this means no preliminary stunning, which creates problems since modern slaughterhouse methods typically put cows through some very scary and unpleasant situations prior to slaughter that it would (arguably) be more humane to have them stunned for. Temple Grandin (sp?) who IS autistic, has designed some humane slaughtering systems that are compatible with kosher slaughter, but unfortunately at this time not all kosher slaughtering houses have adopted them, AFAIK.

Well I know Wiki is not the source of sources, but according to it they are not killed with a single blow, but simply have their throat slit without any stunning and bleed slowly to death.

Shechita (Hebrew:ùçéèä) is the ritual slaughter of animals, as prescribed for slaughter of mammals and birds according to Jewish dietary laws.[1] The act is performed by drawing a very sharp knife across the animal's throat and allowing the blood to drain out. Islamic dietary laws requires a similar procedure.

Is Wiki wrong here?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Well I know Wiki is not the source of sources, but according to it they are not killed with a single blow, but simply have their throat slit without any stunning and bleed slowly to death.



Is Wiki wrong here?

AFAIK, yes.

Edit:No, you just need to read the entire article. The slit is supposed to cut through the trachea,etc causing immediate death. The implication of slow bleeding WHILE the animal is alive is misleading.

[Harovan]

By the way the Jews were not those who were screaming bloody murder here about this. It was the Muslims (who else).

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Weren't Muslims (oh, and as it appears Jews too) those who prefer to slaughter their animals by letting them slowly bleed to death?

My uncles in Ireland used to work in an abattoir.

Humane it wasn't.

The animals were penned up outside, some in obvious distress, and there was blood and waste everywhere.

The Jewish and Muslim approach to animal slaughter is actually based on respect for the animal- and not on trying to process the greatest number of animals for a consumer market.

The exposes of the animal industry by Upton Sinclair are quite dramatic- and B.S.E. and Listeria and E Coli and salmonella outbreaks indicate that profit, not people or animal welfare all too often comes first.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
By the way the Jews were not those who were screaming bloody murder here about this. It was the Muslims (who else).

considering A. How few Jews you have and B. How few of those keep kosher,

its hardly surprising muslim voices were louder. In other places, IIUC, this has been the basis for muslim-Jewish cooperation.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by molly bloom


My uncles in Ireland used to work in an abattoir.

Humane it wasn't.

The animals were penned up outside, some in obvious distress, and there was blood and waste everywhere.

The Jewish and Muslim approach to animal slaughter is actually based on respect for the animal- and not on trying to process the greatest number of animals for a consumer market.

The exposes of the animal industry by Upton Sinclair are quite dramatic- and B.S.E. and Listeria and E Coli and salmonella outbreaks indicate that profit, not people or animal welfare all too often comes first.

actually there ARE some problems at some kosher slaughterhouses, esp if they combine modern mass methods with the limits of stunning of kosher slaughter. However these problems can be overcome with properly designed slaughterhouses.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
considering A. How few Jews you have and B. How few of those keep kosher,

its hardly surprising muslim voices were louder.

We may have but few, but trust me, they can be very vocal, if they want and the matter is worth to make noise. Which this one obviously is not, even more since as it seems this law isn't very strictly enforced anyway (at least in non-German businesses).

[Dinner]

The Stinking Rose is a great restaurant. In fact that whole area of San Francisco is packed with great restaurants.

If you like Garlic then you need to go to the Stinking Rose and also go to the Gilroy Garlic Festival at least once.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


We may have but few, but trust me, they can be very vocal, if they want and the matter is worth to make noise. Which this one obviously is not, even more since as it seems this law isn't very strictly enforced anyway (at least in non-German businesses).

this might explain it

"Germany/Switzerland/Sweden
The kosher challenge in Britain is not the only European kosher news this year. In January, Jewish and Muslim groups in Germany applauded the reversal of a law that banned Islamic ritual slaughter in Germany. And, during this same time period, the Swiss attempt to permit kosher slaughter was defeated.

German animal rights groups, the German Animal Protection League and the Union Against Abuse of Animals, maligned the ruling permitting halal slaughter and said that they would continue their quest for a European ban on all forms of ritual slaughter which they consider cruel to animals. They vowed to take their campaign across Europe and to the European Union.

At present, shechita is legal throughout Europe (including Germany) except in Switzerland and Sweden. Aside from the exception for kosher slaughter, Germany requires that an animal be rendered unconscious before slaughter.

In Germany, butchers are required to stun an animal, usually with a bolt fired into the brain, so that it is unconscious before slaughter. An exception was granted for the kosher form of slaughter, because a kosher butcher requires training and a license and is presumed to take precautions against an animal’s suffering.

In 1995, Germany declared halal slaughter illegal, with the hope that Muslim butchers would produce halal meat under the existing German law. "

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Weren't Muslims (oh, and as it appears Jews too) those who prefer to slaughter their animals by letting them slowly bleed to death? I remember that because there was a discussion here not long ago. Killing animals this way is forbidden by German laws (although it's not a strongly enforced law), and those people were screaming bloody racism because of this.

I know in Pakistan it is common to torture animals prior to slaughter because the people think it improves the meat. They'll take a hammer and slowly break the still living animals legs to tenderize the meat & to get it to release adrinoline. Once they've broken all the leg bones into small pieces they'll do the same to the back of the animal, the ribs, and work their way to the head which is supposed to be the last thing to get smashed.

I have no problem with eating meat but it seems like giving an animal a clean death is the least you can do rather then torture it in this manner.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
this might explain it

"Germany/Switzerland/Sweden
The kosher challenge in Britain is not the only European kosher news this year. In January, Jewish and Muslim groups in Germany applauded the reversal of a law that banned Islamic ritual slaughter in Germany. And, during this same time period, the Swiss attempt to permit kosher slaughter was defeated.

German animal rights groups, the German Animal Protection League and the Union Against Abuse of Animals, maligned the ruling permitting halal slaughter and said that they would continue their quest for a European ban on all forms of ritual slaughter which they consider cruel to animals. They vowed to take their campaign across Europe and to the European Union.

At present, shechita is legal throughout Europe (including Germany) except in Switzerland and Sweden. Aside from the exception for kosher slaughter, Germany requires that an animal be rendered unconscious before slaughter.

In Germany, butchers are required to stun an animal, usually with a bolt fired into the brain, so that it is unconscious before slaughter. An exception was granted for the kosher form of slaughter, because a kosher butcher requires training and a license and is presumed to take precautions against an animal’s suffering.

In 1995, Germany declared halal slaughter illegal, with the hope that Muslim butchers would produce halal meat under the existing German law. "

Yea, that may have been the "noise" I had heard recently. Although I don't listen very closely to such discussions, at least when different interest groups clash and I don't have a connection to either of them. I rather enjoy my unkosher steak. Well, at least I don't eat it rare, so I can't be a complete barbarian.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I know in Pakistan it is common to torture animals prior to slaughter because the people think it improves the meat. They'll take a hammer and slowly break the still living animals legs to tenderize the meat & to get it to release adrinoline. Once they've broken all the leg bones into small pieces they'll do the same to the back of the animal, the ribs, and work their way to the head which is supposed to be the last thing to get smashed.

This sounds pretty scary.

I have no problem with eating meat but it seems like giving an animal a clean death is the least you can do rather then torture it in this manner.

True.

[DaShi]

Re: How do you, as a meat-eater, justify the violence inherent in your food?

Originally posted by aneeshm
As a vegetarian, I consider meat eating to be abhorrent, for both religious as well as secular reasons.

You claimed not long ago that you weren't religious at all.

The religious reason is that there is tremendous violence inherent in the way that food is obtained. Such violence is not good for the perpetrator.

You know. Plants have souls too.

The secular reason is that killing animals and eating them is, frankly, disgusting. Another secular reason is that eating meat kills the seeds of great compassion.

The first isn't secular, it's a personal opinion. The second is religious.

How do you, as a meat eater (if, that is, you are a meat eater), justify the violence inherent in your food, and inherent in the act of obtaining it? Violence of that nature is, after all, negative, no matter which way you slice it.

That violence isn't negative. It's a part of life. Many animals eat other animals to survive. The difference between man and animal is that man is able to differenciate between acts of violence for necessity and acts of violence for pleasure. The former having no negative or positive value. The latter having a negative value in normal societies. That you are unable to distinguish this is very disturbing.

[Jon Miller]

A secular reason to be vegeterrian is that it is a more efficient use of earth's resources. A lot more food goes to feeding a cow or pig than the meat it produces.

Jon Miller

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Pekka
meat is good when consumed in moderation

You are commie hippie anarchist scum

Meat in moderation
Meat in huge quantities