Bumfights

[Pekka]

So. my argument is that the difference is abuse. These bums are being abused. Even if they agree to fight, it's still abuse in my books. And yes, there' sa big difference between pro fighters agreeing to fight and bums agreeing to fight for beer money in the street, and it's tangible and very real, just watch both, and you really have to twist the word pragmatic into new levels and depths to say there's no difference.

And you can say, well, Jackass guys are abusing themselves as well, well that's not the same either. They're doing pretty well, and the kick in it isn't the same. The trick in this one is the bums and the whole world around it. If we start matching up people with severe injuries and mental illnesses, would that be funny as well? And is that comparable to say, pro boxing? It isn't comparable and it never will be, even if they say they want to fight.

The pro fighters are good, they are professional athletes, they train like professional people and it's their life and they can fight. Anytime you start accepting 'well they agreed to fight', it's never the same, because the whole point of it is that they're bums and the whole scene and it's supposed to be funny. No one watches it because they want to see the fight of the century. They watch it to see bums brawling and that's comedy to some.

[ZEE]

:beer:

Pekka you are the man. that is all that needs to be stated. piece.

[General Ludd]

I wasn't aware that geting into physical fights was part of being a construction worker.

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by General Ludd
I wasn't aware that geting into physical fights was part of being a construction worker.

Never worked on a building site have you?

[Sirotnikov]

Pekka - yes I agree.

But the definition of abuse is a bit murky.

If a bum is hired to go beat someone up, is that abuse?

If someone gave a bum 10 dollars for a shoe shine, or in exchange for cleaning a car, would that have not been abuse?
I mean, no one regulated it, and a car wash could cost much more.


Also, why is it that work relating to sex or violence is much more easily considered abuse?

Why is it ok to say "that woman is abused on her job because of her good looks" while no one ever says "that woman is abused on her job because of her good chemistry skills"?

Even though the chemistry job might get lower pay, more risks, and longer hours?!

[Mercator]

So Dr. Phil asked this guy on his show, and then after seeing that video (which he obviously must've seen before) dismisses him? So he basically just asked him on to chide him rather than talk to him. And then he has security escort him off just to add to his authority or something. That seemed weird.

I can't say I approve of what the bumfights guy is doing, though. He's just taking advantage of them.

[reds4ever]

Whatever the morality of Bumfights I totally agree with the guys point that Dr Phil and his ilk are no better.

[Lul Thyme]

Originally posted by Mercator
So Dr. Phil asked this guy on his show, and then after seeing that video (which he obviously must've seen before) dismisses him? So he basically just asked him on to chide him rather than talk to him. And then he has security escort him off just to add to his authority or something. That seemed weird.

I can't say I approve of what the bumfights guy is doing, though. He's just taking advantage of them.

Yeah, I also thought about that.
It's clear that the Phil dude had decided in advance where the video would stop, and he would throw the guy out.
It's his choice but he tried to make it look somehow "genuine" which is a bit dishonest in my mind.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by reds4ever
Whatever the morality of Bumfights I totally agree with the guys point that Dr Phil and his ilk are no better.

I agree.

I can't stand Dr. Phil. I love that the Bumfights guy dressed up as him.

[Mercator]

D'oh! I wondered why he had such a funny haircut...

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Taking advantage of the helpless

How is violent sports different?
How is ... construction work different?

Had the people been more well off, they wouldn't have worked in ****ty jobs.

Sports jobs generally have some governing authority and standard labor contract structure that provides some degree of worker protections, plus the statutory and regulatory protections in state and Federal law.

Construction work is far different - physically harder, but there is a lot of licensing and safety regulation.

Where's the line between it's ok for someone poor to work in a really ****ty job, where he is hurt - to it is not ok for someone poor to work in a specific really ****ty job.?

There's a few special issues with something like bumfights, and with bumfights specifically.

First, dealing with "bums" is the capacity to consent - a lot of homeless are diagnosed mental patients with mild to fairly severe functional problems - they may be ok if they take their meds and receive regular care, or they may still be impaired. Off their meds (really common with BPD patients), or with their meds interacting with recreational meds, then it's a different question. How much work do you think the bumfights ******* put into making sure these people really had the legal capacity to consent to the agreements they signed?

Anything that's filmed gets into a lot of legal gray areas. The motion picture industry has a lot of exceptions in coverage in state and Federal labor laws, due to the complexity (in real production) of filming on multiple sites in multiple jurisdiction, and non-standard safety issues. Although bumfightsesque productions don't really have those legitimate issues, they can hide behind a claim of being in the motion picture production business to try to avoid a lot of regulatory obligations.

Unions solve a lot of those problems, by creating contractual obligations rather than the lesser degree of state or Federal regulation, but most "indpendendent" digital video production is non-union.

Do the "actors" really understand what it means when they're signing contracts and releases that they have independent contractor status? Do they understant all the liability waivers? Gee, funny how worker's compensation and state disability insurance get left out of that picture, etc.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by reds4ever
Whatever the morality of Bumfights I totally agree with the guys point that Dr Phil and his ilk are no better.

"You're doing it too!" - that's a convenient defense, and convenient way of ducking responsibility. Dr. Phil and all those shows which provide voyeuristic entertainment out of other people's dysfunction are pathetic, but how many people have had the crap kicked out of them on Dr Phil?

[Japher]

I think bumfights exploits the bum for their lack of economic stability and mental sanity. The same way that someone not in their right mind can not enter into a legal binding contract, these bums cannot either. If a crack dealer makes some chick whore herself out for crack he is still a crack dealer.

The guys who make the videos are stupid entrepenuers...

[Perfection]

Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

[Jon Miller]

It doesn't fully exist for children, the mentally challenged, and other groups in our society.

Jon Miller