Yay! I voted in a real election

[Kuciwalker]

How could I? They write all of it in some sort of code that I haven't been able to decipher.

[CrONoS]

@ Oncle Boris

[Richelieu]

Originally posted by Wezil
Richelieu - Let me finish my paid work and I'll get back to you this afternoon.

OK. I'm busy buying a condo right now so i'll be on and off too.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
I'll be eagerly waiting for you, Wezzie. But since you don't even read French, I doubt of your ability to put forth any substanciated claim.

That kind of supports my position already, no?

Let me guess - you'll invoke Bill 101?

Bill 101 - Good example. I see you try to discredit the obvious (and valid) argument off the top. Well done.

[Fake Boris]

Bill 101 is pretty much a consensus, amongst federalists and separatists alike. This means that to show it's racist, you'd have to argue about Quebec as a whole, not only the separatist part of it.

Which brings us to the second point - the number of heinous crimes is not higher in Quebec than in other provinces.

[Wezil]

A few quick starting points:


The nationalist slogan: “la pure laine. If you are not of “pure wool” you are not really a true Quebecer. It is important to have a label for those that do and don’t belong and to be able to differentiate between the two.

Bill 101 – Oncle Boris wants to discredit this argument. Bill 101(among other niceties) contained a “language of instruction” clause which forced non-English immigrants to Quebec to enroll their children in French language schools regardless of the language, or choice, of the parents.

Of course there is Parizeau saying what was supposed to be kept quiet when he cited money and ethnic voters as the reason the last neverendum was lost. Keep in mind, this was not a back bencher flunkie that shot his mouth off (as in the litany of Conservative yokels over the years). This was the duly elected leader of the separatist party. He didn’t get there by accident.


And a couple web articles:

What some feminists think:

http://www.lilithgallery.com/articles/canada/quebec/Quebec-Separatism.html

“So to some extent Quebec Separatism is really about isolationism (and also ethnicism and racism). Isolated French-Canadiens are jaded against English-Canadians. And ethnic foreigners.”


Another source: http://www.newint.org/issue277/soup.htm

The ethnocentric exclusionary nationalism has created the most tensions, alienating the immigrant Montreal Allophones (Québecois parlance for immigrants whose native language is neither French nor English) and the native populations scattered around the province, particularly the militant Cree in the North. Sometimes this takes the form of overt racism such as the attacks on native people at the time of the militant land dispute at Oka a couple of years ago – or more recently the graffiti sprayed on Anglophone and Allophone businesses in Montreal. More often it is simply an assumption that such groups are not really Québecois and that their concerns are some how less important than those of la pure laine.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Bill 101 is pretty much a consensus, amongst federalists and separatists alike. This means that to show it's racist, you'd have to argue about Quebec as a whole, not only the separatist part of it.

Yes, that argument could be made as well.

[Nostromo]

The nationalist slogan: “la pure laine. If you are not of “pure wool” you are not really a true Quebecer. It is important to have a label for those that do and don’t belong and to be able to differentiate between the two.

BS. Maybe this was true in the 50's or in 60's, but not today. I can understand how you came to that conclusion, observing things from afar, reading the trash the newspapers say about us in the ROC. When it comes to Quebec, their moto seems to be: anything goes, **** the facts.

Bill 101 – Oncle Boris wants to discredit this argument. Bill 101(among other niceties) contained a “language of instruction” clause which forced non-English immigrants to Quebec to enroll their children in French language schools regardless of the language, or choice, of the parents.

And why is that racist, again? Unless you're using the word in a very loose sense, I don't see any racial prejudice or discrimination in that.

[Kuciwalker]

Wiki says Section 6 of the Charter guarantees French Canadians a French education anywhere in Canada. Why can't other people choose an English education in Quebec, even if they don't speak English? Did they invoke the notwithstanding clause? If so, that would seem a mite hypocritical.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Bill 101 is pretty much a consensus, amongst federalists and separatists alike

So I don't count?

[Kuciwalker]

You're an American by now.

[KrazyHorse]

Eat me, Yank.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by nostromo


BS. Maybe this was true in the 50's or in 60's, but not today. I can understand how you came to that conclusion, observing things from afar, reading the trash the newspapers say about us in the ROC. When it comes to Quebec, their moto seems to be: anything goes, **** the facts.



And why is that racist, again? Unless you're using the word in a very loose sense, I don't see any racial prejudice or discrimination in that.

So the roots of the movement can be used to show they aren't racist but the same past can't be used in counter-argument? WTF?

Speaking of newspaper articles from afar, this one's a beauty:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2007/02/02/qc-reasonableaccommodation20070202.html

Should I be surprised this town is in the separatist heartland?

[Richelieu]

Originally posted by Wezil
A few quick starting points:

The nationalist slogan: “la pure laine. If you are not of “pure wool” you are not really a true Quebecer. It is important to have a label for those that do and don’t belong and to be able to differentiate between the two.

Pure laine is an expression not a slogan. There are some - like yourself - who try to recuperate this expression to tag it onto all french speaking quebecers in order to brand them racists. In reality it is rarely used here while its use is increasing in the offices of The Toronto Sun.

Bill 101 – Oncle Boris wants to discredit this argument. Bill 101(among other niceties) contained a “language of instruction” clause which forced non-English immigrants to Quebec to enroll their children in French language schools regardless of the language, or choice, of the parents.

Bill 101 stipulates that children attending public schools must do so in French until the post-secondary level. (If they go to private, it's their choice). An exception allows for children to attend the English-language public schools if either one of the parents received his/her education in English in Canada.
Meaning: if you come to Quebec from outside Canada, you'll be in a predominantly french society and we'll offer you free education in french. If you come from the rest of Canada and you want to study in english, you can if one of your parents did too. If not, you can pay to get your education in english. We have a great english education system.

Of course there is Parizeau saying what was supposed to be kept quiet when he cited money and ethnic voters as the reason the last neverendum was lost. Keep in mind, this was not a back bencher flunkie that shot his mouth off (as in the litany of Conservative yokels over the years). This was the duly elected leader of the separatist party. He didn’t get there by accident.

And he didn't stay there for long after, or receive any support from anyone after he said it. He was chastised by both french and english speaking media. He's been a political paria ever since. Perhaps we should have shot him.
But, adding to this, what was so wrong about what he said?


About your articles, i am certain there's plenty of resources out there that may look less biased than an op-ed from a Toronto based journalist or an article that begins:

If Quebec Separates from the rest of Canada...

First and foremost, it will be an expensive process. It will require a lot of paperwork, a lot of lawyers and legal advice. Its difficult to even begin to estimate the amount of time and all the costs that could result.

Undoubtably the government of Quebec would have to raise taxes (or go into severe debt) because quite frankly the rest of Canada won't want to pay the bill for the cost of such a lengthy "divorce".

Indeed I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of Canadians/Canadiens feel that the entire Quebec Separatist movement is a ****ING WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY.

Very insightful. Where did you get that one?

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Wezil
A few quick starting points:


The nationalist slogan: “la pure laine. If you are not of “pure wool” you are not really a true Quebecer. It is important to have a label for those that do and don’t belong and to be able to differentiate between the two.

WTF, slogan? Whose slogan, where and when?

Bill 101 – Oncle Boris wants to discredit this argument. Bill 101(among other niceties) contained a “language of instruction” clause which forced non-English immigrants to Quebec to enroll their children in French language schools regardless of the language, or choice, of the parents.

No. It forces all citizens of Quebec whose parents have not been educated in a public English school to go to French school.

Of course there is Parizeau saying what was supposed to be kept quiet when he cited money and ethnic voters as the reason the last neverendum was lost. Keep in mind, this was not a back bencher flunkie that shot his mouth off (as in the litany of Conservative yokels over the years). This was the duly elected leader of the separatist party. He didn’t get there by accident.

Again, Parizeau was factually correct - there are certain electoral bureaus where 100% of votes expressed were a NO. You need better than this to show he's racist.

And a couple web articles:

What some feminists think:

http://www.lilithgallery.com/articles/canada/quebec/Quebec-Separatism.html

“So to some extent Quebec Separatism is really about isolationism (and also ethnicism and racism). Isolated French-Canadiens are jaded against English-Canadians. And ethnic foreigners.”

This is retarded. I have read the article. The author argues that separatism is about "isolationism" because - hold your breath - more people voted yes in Quebec city than in Montreal, and that Quebec city is in the middle of nowhere.

You are discrediting yourself on your own.

The ethnocentric exclusionary nationalism has created the most tensions, alienating the immigrant Montreal Allophones (Québecois parlance for immigrants whose native language is neither French nor English) and the native populations scattered around the province, particularly the militant Cree in the North. Sometimes this takes the form of overt racism such as the attacks on native people at the time of the militant land dispute at Oka a couple of years ago – or more recently the graffiti sprayed on Anglophone and Allophone businesses in Montreal. More often it is simply an assumption that such groups are not really Québecois and that their concerns are some how less important than those of la pure laine.

a) Alienating the Crees

BS. Ungava, the riding with the highest percentage of Native population, voted YES, in 1995, to the proportion of 46,91%.

b) Alienating immigrants

To some extent, it is true. Many immigrants are especially sensitive on issues relating to nationalism, or to what threatens political stability. However, the PQ has undergone a vast effort to integrate 'neo-Québécois" in its movement, with success. Many PQ candidates in Montreal come from immigrant backgrounds. A survey conducted a few years ago also showed that immigrants aged 18-30 favored separatism in a proportion of 39%.