Yay! I voted in a real election

[Nostromo]

Your numbers are increasing. I simply refuse to believe your claims that your culture is in danger when you are doing such a nice job of increasing your numbers. Maybe those were valid concerns in the 60s and 70s. That time is long past.

I should have written:

- We have culture, different from theirs

- That our culture was (still is?) in jeopardy

- We needed (and still need?) to take some measures to protect it

Yes, our numbers are increasing. I think that the measures we took were necessary. And they certainly were successful. So its a good thing, overall. Now, the question is this: how will all this pan out in the long run? I would be interested to see the demographic projections. That would presumably tell us if our culture is still in jeopardy or not. And if it is, the next question would be: what other measures can we take to correct this situation? Could we implement those measures while remaining inside Canada?

As you see, lots of unanswered questions. That's why I'm not sure anymore whether giving ourselves a new country is necessarily the way to go.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Financially worth?

Because when it comes to the financial aspect of culture, English is a ****ing behemoth.

No, in general.

Yes, our numbers are increasing. I think that the measures we took were necessary. And they certainly were successful. So its a good thing, overall. Now, the question is this: how will all this pan out in the long run? I would be interested to see the demographic projections. That would presumably tell us if our culture is still in jeopardy or not. And if it is, the next question would be: what other measures can we take to correct this situation? Could we implement those measures while remaining inside Canada?

As you see, lots of unanswered questions. That's why I'm not sure anymore whether giving ourselves a new country is necessarily the way to go.

Right, and honestly due to demographics I believe your measures have succeeded and perhaps gone too far. Though I suppose more interesting measures would have been measures showing distribution of wealth, education, etc. among the various linguistic groups.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Victor Galis





I have contempt for all separatists everywhere and their sympathisers.

Why?

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by General Ludd


Why?

Does every position have to be rational? If yes, I hate political parties that obtain votes solely on the basis of race because they tend to have disproportionate power in multiparty systems and tend not to lose votes for doing stupid ****. (See the UDMR in Romania.) Also, such parties can get votes without actually standing for any political issues. The PQ fits less into this category now that the ADQ can take away a large part of the French vote.

For the record, I also oppose declaring English as the official language of the US or its various states or attempts to cut back services available in Spanish in some areas, so my anti-French dominance stance in Quebec is not necessarily based in any specific anti-French sentiment*.

*-Although the more I watch French politics I wonder. (Actually to completely threadjack my own thread, can anyone tell me anything about Bayrou? It now seems he may have a chance of making a significant showing.)

[notyoueither]

I would say seperatism did far more to drive people from Montreal to Toronto than language laws.

If you're youngish and you see the writing on the wall (economic prospects endangered by politically popular, but destructive causes) you would be wise to move.

Oh, and then there's following your job as the head offices moved en masse to Toronto, Vancouver, and Calgary.

[Ninot]

I was just defeated in a school election by some emo kid. ****ing emo

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Richelieu
Bill 101 stipulates that children attending public schools must do so in French until the post-secondary level. (If they go to private, it's their choice). An exception allows for children to attend the English-language public schools if either one of the parents received his/her education in English in Canada.

Meaning: if you come to Quebec from outside Canada, you'll be in a predominantly french society and we'll offer you free education in french. If you come from the rest of Canada and you want to study in english, you can if one of your parents did too. If not, you can pay to get your education in english. We have a great english education system.

No.

In Quebec.

I was born and educated in English in Alberta. Were I and my hypothetical wife with the same backgound to move to Quebec, our children would have to go to school in French.

Meanwhile, Spiffor's French born children would be free to go to school in French in Calgary, that most redneck of Canadian cities.

[Nostromo]

Richelieu is correct. You could send your "hypothetical" children to an english or a french school. Its up to you.

[notyoueither]

I am betrayed by my source and skimming. Should have known better than to trust 'em and to skim.

It was the case, but has changed.

[Ninot]

As long as we are talking private school, he's right. Public would be french untill high school

[notyoueither]

Roo?

Ninot knows something I do not?

[Ninot]

That's impossible

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by nostromo
Richelieu is correct. You could send your "hypothetical" children to an english or a french school. Its up to you.

Actually, now that I look closer, I am thinking things have not changed so much until recently.

Let's give the PQ, or other nationalists, another crack at the ability to use the notwithstanding clause, shall we? Even Kings of Alberta have been too embarrassed to use it. Meanwhile, it is required fare for the daily consumption of the policies that make Quebec 'French'.

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1112280149761_13?hub=topstories

Top court upholds French language law in Quebec
CTV.ca News Staff

The Supreme Court of Canada has rejected claims by francophone Quebecers to let their children attend English language schools.

In a unanimous decision, the country's top court has upheld the language legislation in Quebec known as Bill 101 -- which obliges French speaking parents to send their kids to a francophone school.

A group of eight francophone families have been fighting hard for their children's right to attend English language schools, claiming they're being discriminated against.

"The Supreme Court ruled that the anti-discrimination provisions of the Charter of Rights do not override the language provisions of the Charter of Rights," reports CTV's Mike Duffy from Ottawa. "They stand side by side."

He added that the court has ruled that, "to allow French speaking parents to send their kids to English language school would swamp the English language school system in Quebec."

Under Bill 101, parents must have received the majority of their schooling in English if they want their kids to be eligible for English education in Quebec.

Disappointed by the ruling, the lawyer for the parents said he's going to take his fight to the United Nations.

Brent Tyler said no other country in the world restricts access to public facilities based on language. And he's going to ask the UN human rights tribunal to rule on the validity of Quebec's language law, which he calls discriminatory.

"We're of course disappointed in the French parents' case that it didn't go our way," Tyler told CTV Newsnet. "But it's the Supreme Court and we're going to have to just live with it unless the UN says any different, or unless the political winds change."

Doors opened for immigrants, anglophones

Tyler was satisfied, however, with another Supreme Court ruling that's opened the doors to more people getting access to English schools in Quebec.

The lawyer represented immigrant families who claim their children should have been allowed access to English schooling, based on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms' Section 23 -- which protects minority language education rights.

Under the Charter, which is Canada's supreme law, children who started school in English or French anywhere in Canada, or whose own parents were educated in those languages, have a right to be educated in that language.

Canada's highest court said today that Quebec's government must revamp its rules for English schooling to comply with the Charter.

It laid down new legal criteria that will make it easier for immigrants and native born Canadians who moved to Quebec from other provinces, to attend English schools.

Under Bill 101, native speakers of English had been excluded from getting an English education if they happened to attend school in another language or moved to Quebec from another country.

In Michael Parasiuk's case, English is the primary language spoken in his household.

He wanted to enroll his son in a French immersion school in Quebec. But because his wife is an immigrant from Australia, and he attended a French immersion school in Manitoba, his son was ineligible for an immersion program and was forced to attend a francophone school.

He called this a "double standard."

"A French immersion school outside of Quebec, according to the Quebec government, is a French school. And a French immersion school inside of Quebec is an English school," Parasiuk said at a news conference in Ottawa.

He said he's "happy" with today's ruling, but asked, "Why did I have to go through two and a half years of fighting? There's no reason at all."

And Tyler said he wonders how generous an interpretation Quebec bureaucrats will give the court decision.

He said it's impossible to say exactly how many children will benefit from it.

"So much of it depends on the attitude of the Quebec government. Are they going to accept the spirit of this judgment?'' he said to the Canadian Press.

Bill 101 also distinguishes between public and private schooling. It prohibits most English private schooling as a pathway to a public education in English.

The net effect left many allophones -- those whose first language is neither English nor French -- from obtaining an English education.

With files from CTV News and the Canadian Press

When is French not good enough?

[Kuciwalker]

Doesn't the UN have better things to worry about, like criticising Israel?

[notyoueither]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/03/31/scoc101050331.html

Judgment eases English-language education rules in Quebec
Last Updated: Wednesday, April 6, 2005 | 5:01 PM ET
CBC News
The Supreme Court of Canada has opened the door to increased English-language education in Quebec, but the province says it isn't planning any legislative changes.

INDEPTH: Bill 101: Language Laws in Quebec

In a unanimous judgment Thursday, the court stopped short of striking down provincial legislation restricting access to English schools. But it laid down new legal criteria that will make it easier for immigrants and native-born Canadians to gain access to English schools.

Court ruled on 2 cases

The court was asked to consider two cases. It ruled in one case that francophone parents in the province do not have the right to send their children to English schools. It says the province's language law, Bill 101, does not violate the Charter of Rights on this matter.

All seven judges ruled that siding with the parents in this case would nullify the rights of the English-language minority in Quebec. That's because English schools would be flooded with French-speaking students.

Continue Article

But while upholding Bill 101's educational provisions, the court also said that the province must better define those provisions. The court ruling means the Quebec government must revamp its rules for English schooling to comply with the federal Charter of Rights.

In a separate decision, the court rejected claims from a group of francophones that they should be able to choose English schooling for their children.

The judges said members of the linguistic majority have no constitutional right to education in the minority language.

The group had been fighting for the right to have their children educated in English, which is currently prohibited by Bill 101.

Right now, Bill 101 denies public school instruction in English to children whose parents received the bulk of their education in French. The aim is to promote French-language instruction, inside Quebec, especially among immigrants.

But the legislation has been seen as restrictive, especially by anglophones who move to Quebec and are forced to have their children educated in the French-language system.

Mance Bourassa, one of those parents who led the fight, lives in Quebec's French-speaking heartland, the town of Charette, near Shawinagan.

Before the ruling, she said, "If English-speaking parents can choose to educate their children in English," she said she should "have the same right."

More legal battles likely

Brent Tyler, the lawyer for the families, says the ruling will just mean more court battles.

"The unfortunate aspect of that, for us, is that we will have to continue to litigate these cases on a case-by-case basis. We were hoping for some guidance from the court," he said.

The language of instruction clause is considered the cornerstone of Bill 101, which has also been the source of some of the most bitter debate in Quebec politics for decades and Thursday's decisions are expected to re-ignite language debates in the province.

But the Quebec government faces less trouble since the top court has not struck down its language law as unconstitutional.

Many had expected Quebec Premier Jean Charest to invoke the notwithstanding clause to maintain the status quo. But because the court ruling did not strike down the legislation, he won't be allowed that option.

Quebec Intergovernmental Affairs Minister Benoît Pelletier told a news conference in Quebec City that the court's ruling means there will be "no legislative changes in Quebec, no changes made to Bill 101."

So, the top court ruled that rights are secondary to economics. Having more kids in Anglo schools would overwhelm the willingness of the PoQ to pay for their education. Joy.

Then they ruled that members of a majority have no right to equal protection under the Charter of Rights. Major joy.

Finally, it seems that some people from other parts of Canada continue to have the language of education for their children dictated to them by... legislation that is of course in their best interests.