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Originally posted by Keygen
After the Spartans won the Peloponnesian War the control of the Greek world passed to their hands. They oppressed heavily who ever resisted like the Athenians did before them but gave lot of freedom to those that accepted their domination over them and converted to oligarchy.
But that was exactly what the Persians did and every empire that followed. I do not understand why you're so picky, I guess you're to biased...
I'm not trying to be. As you say, the Spartans oppressed some heavily; I'm sure the Persians could do just as bad sometimes, but it was a comparatively stable and peaceful empire that probably had fewer internal struggles than Persia did.
If your ancestors were thinking the same way you do, they would be under the empire too, the British empire that is
Maybe; I'm not trying to debate nationalist fervor or say that Persia really should have won, I was just considering whether Spartan or Persian hegemony might be better. The Spartans and other Greeks defended their independence and that's certainly admirable.
Lime roots and treachery!
"Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten
I'm not trying to be. As you say, the Spartans oppressed some heavily; I'm sure the Persians could do just as bad sometimes, but it was a comparatively stable and peaceful empire that probably had fewer internal struggles than Persia did.
There were numerous riots within Persian empire and all were ended in blood. That have happened within every long lasting empire or state.
Originally posted by Cyclotron
Maybe; I'm not trying to debate nationalist fervor or say that Persia really should have won, I was just considering whether Spartan or Persian hegemony might be better. The Spartans and other Greeks defended their independence and that's certainly admirable.
The only hegemony that is good is people's hegemony, what ever form that has. When the power is in the hands of the few, that is a bad think
Originally posted by Keygen
I can't agree more to that. Slavery however was abolished only 200 years ago and modern Greece was the first country to adopt it in my acknowledge.
The first to adopt slavery, or to abolish it? I assume you mean the latter. I'm not saying modern Greeks are evil, only that ancient Sparta was a nasty piece of work and I'd have a hard time cheering for them knowing what they were.
How about music, sculpture, philosophy, science, technology, military tactics and a whole bunch of other things?
You didn't invent philosophy, Babylon was the original patron of philosophy in that part of the world AFAIK. Ditto for a lot of the others (though Babylon wasn't always the real inventor). As for military tactics, plenty of other people did that. Or did Sun Tzu rip you guys off from the other end of the Eastern Hemisphere?
Jingoism? I do not believe that all Spartans were pedophiles and that makes me Jingoist? Man, are you biased against the Greeks or something?
No, sorry, I was just bringing all of my opinions about Greece in general to bear on this conversation. Mind you, I've rarely met a Greek who wasn't psycho pro-Greek; you folks are the GOP of the Orthodox world.
Hey, apart from continually beating the black folk to death to make them grow cotton, the old South of my country had a lot going for it. Hospitality, honor, funny accents...but I just can't ignore that one niggling bit. Ditto for Sparta. Oh, and what about that quaint tradition of raising all boys in barracks, then setting them loose to murder helots for a living at sixteen (but punishing them if they were caught)? I suppose I do need to know more about the origins of Hellenic Civilization...
Never heard that they were punished for murdering helots.
AFAIK it was so that they were encouraged to steal food (because of the small rations) and were punished if they were caught doing this (with the famous of the boy who hid a foxunder his clothes on his body and rather chose to die because the fox bit and scratched than to let out a moan and get caught).
But to murder Helots AFAIK they had every right if they thought they were conspiring against te state.
Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve." Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
"Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead
I'm not a huge history buff, but didn't your typical hoplite wear a breastplate of some sort? The WaPo review had photos of tons of burly men with impressive plumed helmets, greaves, spears, swords, heavy metal shields...and what looked like leather speedos. Oh, and cloaks. That's it. No chest protection whatsoever. I don't know how I failed to notice that omission in the TV ads; probably it was because those ads concentrated on male faces growling and yelling threats through clenched teeth, a la Dragonball Z. But they looked like a male stripper brigade, preparing to "thpank thothe naughty Perthian bad boyth."
How can you take that seriously? Between that and the lame dialogue, I might rent it just for humor value when it comes out on DVD.
I don't critique every little detail. I'm more a plot type guy.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
"Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead
Originally posted by Elok
I'm not a huge history buff, but didn't your typical hoplite wear a breastplate of some sort? The WaPo review had photos of tons of burly men with impressive plumed helmets, greaves, spears, swords, heavy metal shields...and what looked like leather speedos. Oh, and cloaks. That's it. No chest protection whatsoever. I don't know how I failed to notice that omission in the TV ads; probably it was because those ads concentrated on male faces growling and yelling threats through clenched teeth, a la Dragonball Z. But they looked like a male stripper brigade, preparing to "thpank thothe naughty Perthian bad boyth."
How can you take that seriously? Between that and the lame dialogue, I might rent it just for humor value when it comes out on DVD.
Buddy, it's suppose to be "pulp", like how the comic was over the top, so's the movie.
Anyone going to this for a history lesson is, well...what's the word?
Stupid
Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.
The first to adopt slavery, or to abolish it? I assume you mean the latter.
Yes, abolish.
Originally posted by Elok
I'm not saying modern Greeks are evil, only that ancient Sparta was a nasty piece of work and I'd have a hard time cheering for them knowing what they were.
That is what I thought myself once, until I thoroughly read the Archaic and Classic period of ancient Greece. Then I changed my mind
Originally posted by Elok
You didn't invent philosophy, Babylon was the original patron of philosophy in that part of the world AFAIK. Ditto for a lot of the others (though Babylon wasn't always the real inventor). As for military tactics, plenty of other people did that. Or did Sun Tzu rip you guys off from the other end of the Eastern Hemisphere?
Actually the Greeks didn't invent any of what I mentioned earlier and I did not claim they did. What I meant was that the Greeks thoroughly studied those and developed them in great extend, more than any other civilization of their time.
Originally posted by Elok
No, sorry, I was just bringing all of my opinions about Greece in general to bear on this conversation. Mind you, I've rarely met a Greek who wasn't psycho pro-Greek; you folks are the GOP of the Orthodox world.
No, Greeks are not like that. Only if you affront their history and their nation
As for me, I am afraid I am not such a religious zealot. I do respect some of their teachings but, well, that is all
Originally posted by Elok
I'm not a huge history buff, but didn't your typical hoplite wear a breastplate of some sort? The WaPo review had photos of tons of burly men with impressive plumed helmets, greaves, spears, swords, heavy metal shields...and what looked like leather speedos. Oh, and cloaks. That's it. No chest protection whatsoever.
The typical hoplite wore a Linothorax,
it is a stiff armor of several layers of linen.
The main protection for the hoplites came from their shield (which is from which they got their name as hoplon = shield)
The hoplon was also the heaviest part of the equipment which is why a spartan mother is cited with
E tan e epi tas
Either with it (the shield) or upon it.
You should either come home with the shield or dead
(as coming home without the shield would mean, that he fled the battle, as you cannot flee properly with a heavy shield in your hand )
Last edited by Proteus_MST; March 10, 2007, 14:19.
Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve." Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"
Maybe; I'm not trying to debate nationalist fervor or say that Persia really should have won, I was just considering whether Spartan or Persian hegemony might be better. The Spartans and other Greeks defended their independence and that's certainly admirable. 
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