ISRAEL: Most Hated Country in the World?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos


There is also no other example of any other people getting their ancesteral homland back after being gone for 2000+ years.

Precisely. The attachment, however long preceded gettint the homeland back. It was the unique relationship of exiles to their land that was the reason for regaining the homeland.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos

And the communities the Jews build in Palestine in the 20 odd years prior to the creation of Israel hardly count as historic ties, if that is the case why doesn't Israel annex NYC and Miami?

Israel became a state in 1948. the first Zionist communities were in Petach Tikvah in 1878, and in Rishon Le Zion in 1882.

Those were by no means the first "modern" Jewish communities in Palestine however, only the first Zionist ones. The "old Yishuv", the pre-Zionist Jewish community in Palestine, numbered 30,000 in the mid-19th c, constituted a majority in the cities of Safed and Tiberias, and according many sources, a majority in Jerusalem.

Roughly 20,000 of these were descended from Hassidic migrants from eastern europe, mainly in the late 18th c.

10,000 however, were sephardic jews who had setttled in Israel in the 16th century, after fleeing the Spanish inquisition. They created thriving communities in Sephad and Tiberias, in which great works of Jewish litury and mysticism were created, before Jamestown was settled.


As for NY and Miami, as you know they are part of a soveriegn independent state. They were not parts of provinces of a fallen empire, as Palestine was in 1918. And of course the Jews had no historic claims to them.


Again there was never a time when Jews did not live in Palestine. There were few times when they did not have vital, culturally important communities there.

And they did not merely have nostalgia, but the notion of exile and return were key parts of Jewish life in the diaspora.

[lord of the mark]

Sometimes I think this sort of thing is like arguing about the space program with someone who thinks Jupiter is the closest planet to earth.


Folks seem to think that the Jews disappeared from Israel in 146 CE and didnt reappear there till 1948, or 1919 at the earliest.


Every shabbat I sing Lekha Dodi, a poem written in Sefad, in Israel, circa 1600. We study the Jerusalem ("Palestinian") Talmud, written in Israel circa 450 CE. We read Hebrew using a system of vowels developed in Tiberias circa 900 CE. And yet Im constantly told how the Jews were all gone from the land, and first arrived there 20 years before Israel was created.


I mean I hear things worthy of the Nedaverse for their unreality. I understand some will claim that the histocic attachments still didnt justify the League mandate, or the 1948 partition. Thats something about which reasonable folks can disagree (like should we go to the nearest planet which IS Mars). But when folks blend in things that either say explicitly or imply stuff thats just so historically out there, I scratch my head.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by lord of the mark But when folks blend in things that either say explicitly or imply stuff thats just so historically out there, I scratch my head.

Then look in the ****ing mirror, because you've been confusing the issue in your favour one way or another over the course of this entire thread...

[Sandman]

Again there was never a time when Jews did not live in Palestine. There were few times when they did not have vital, culturally important communities there.

And they did not merely have nostalgia, but the notion of exile and return were key parts of Jewish life in the diaspora.

So basically, they just really, really wanted the land?

[padillah]

Originally posted by Sandman


So basically, they just really, really wanted the land?

To back up LOTM: that's all the U.S. wanted. To form a country away from England. We are simply a bunch of people that moved here and set up shop simply because we wanted to.

Pretty much the same with the Spanish in Mexico, the Portugues in Brazil, and quite a few others.

Tom P.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman


So basically, they just really, really wanted to regain sovereignty in their land?

Fixed. Yes.

[Kidlicious]

LotM,

What do you think of the Native Americans getting back their land?

[Sandman]

Or Greeks getting back Constantinople, or Arabs getting back Spain or etc. I'm sure you could cook up the same basic multicultural-esque language to justify it.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Kidicious
LotM,

What do you think of the Native Americans getting back their land?

Id overcome my normal belief in not gambling and go play at an indian casino so they can get more money to buy land back. IE I think that the indians did not lose their rights because they are no longer a majority. Those rights must of course be balanced with the rights of others who have created communities here (a position I hold wrt to Israel-Palestine as well) I think we should continue to respect the notion of the indian nations as soveriegn, and Im broadly sympathetic with their increasing both their landholdings and the areas over which they exercise sovereignty. OTOH afaik those nations which do have gambling profits use them for social improvements, museums, etc and NOT to buy additional land. Is that incorrect? Apparently they have a somewhat different set of priorities. Probably because unlike the Jews circa 1900, they dont have millions of folks overseas desperate for somewhere to go.


BTW, if there ARE native American descendants living overseas, who were exiled, I would fully approve of an absolute right of return for them. The only case that pops into my head like that is the Nez Perce, who fled to Canada in the late 19thc. I would approve a right of return for any Nez Perce.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
That's why our current project to culture flip Florida has gone unnoticed for so long.

You are welcome to it

Operation Beachfront Property is on its way to glorious success...

I thought that was the one where you dump tons of CO2 into the atmosphere.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman
Or Greeks getting back Constantinople, or Arabs getting back Spain or etc. I'm sure you could cook up the same basic multicultural-esque language to justify it.

The Greeks already have an independent sovereign state on the land of historic Greece. So Id put their getting back Constantinople in the same category as Israel retaining Shechem and Hebron - a nice dream, but something that must be sacrificed to pragmatism, the only viable strategy for both the Greek and Israeli states.

as for the arabs, last I heard they have quite a few independent sovereign states.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I think we should continue to respect the notion of the indian nations as soveriegn, and Im broadly sympathetic with their increasing both their landholdings and the areas over which they exercise sovereignty.

Why couldn't the Jewish people have come to the US to do this?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Why couldn't the Jewish people have come to the US to do this?

come to the USA to make the Indian nations soveriegn? Come to the USA to establish Jewish soveriegn nations on US territory? Really, youre not being clear. Please state what you are talking about explicitly, Id rather not make any assumptions.

[Arrian]

I forget if we've ever discussed it, LotM... what is your opinion about the Palestinian demand for a ROR?

-Arrian