ISRAEL: Most Hated Country in the World?

[padillah]

LOTM: FWIW I heard King Hussein made a great speech on this (well peace in ME and the U.S.' obligation to it) this morning/afternoon.

I know he's from Jordan and probably had thousands of hidden agendas and you shouldn't listen to him... but I thought you might want to know.

Tom P.
(Please, I say the above in all sarcasm. You simply appear to be well educated in the matter and I thought you might be interested. My mother said it was a great speech)

[padillah]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
4. Its not so much a question of your point being negated, but that is pointless trying to discuss the matter without your knowing some basic background.
...

5. Im sorry if you think expecting someone to gain basic knowledge before making assertions, or questions based on assertions, in a controversial area, is snobbish. I dont see it that way.

This assumes I know what knowledge I should have and how to aquire it. Are you suggesting I could read any book on Jewish history and be up-to-speed? Mein Kampf springs to mind as one that, I would assume, wouldn't help much.

To your point; no, asking me to read A History of the Jewish People (Hayim Ben-Sasson), or Jewish History, Jewish Religion (Israel Shahak) isn't dismissive. (Heck even
The Complete Idiot's Guide to Jewish History (Benjamin Blech) )

The generic "read a book", is.

Tom P.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by padillah


What I have displayed and what I posses may be a point of contention.

Be that as it may, that does not give anyone the right to dismis an argument with a simple "read a book".

Fine, the Jewish regard themselvs as a race not just a religion. The question still stands: Why does that demand they be given a country?

None of the American Indian tribes are trying to get their own country. And what about the Aztec and Mayan Indians in South America; not trying to make their own country. There are plenty of races without countries.

And there are plenty of countries without racial backing: Canada, France, The U.S....

My collosal ignorance aside: Why do the Jewish feel they need/deserve/are owed a country?

Tom P.

One its not even as simple as "race", or even "nation" which was what they tended to say, not race, a term you have introduced here. and not all Jews agree. Thats why I keep asking you to read a book.

Second, the fact that A has a claim to X, and B has a claim to Y on the same basis, and that B does not choose to assert that claim, does not negate A's claim.


Many Jews in the 19th century, felt that the situation of Jews in Europe and elsewhere at the time made a state imperative. That members of other nationalities may not have felt a need was not of interest to them. To understand why they felt that need, I must again suggest you read any basic historty of the Jews in modern times, which would address their motives.

If you are asking why Israel today has a right to determine its own national identity, the simple answer is that Israel NOW is sovereign, and has the same right to assert its identity as any other country.


If you are asking about the establishment of religion in Israel (for example the absence of civil divorce), I would suggest that many Zionists in fact dislike that and are working to lessen or eliminate it. However I would point out that far from being something Zionists would decry in other states in the ME, the use of religious law in such matters is quite common in the region, and is not an issue that Israel has raised with its neighbors.

If you are asking why American Jews support a wall of seperation in the US, I would suggest that springs from their view of America, and doesnt extend to any other country. I would also note that most American Jews want a more secular Israel, and that many American Orthodox Jews are NOT strongly supportive of a wall of seperation in the US.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by padillah
My collosal ignorance aside: Why do the Jewish feel they need/deserve/are owed a country?

Tom P.

LoTM is a much better source than me on this issue, but I'd guess that it stems from a few things:

1. The Jews have had a distinct culture for millennia

2. The Balfour declaration was made in 1917, a time when the concept of national self-determination was in vouge and contemporary political theory held that each ethnic group should have a state of their own. Plus, the Brits were at war with the Ottomans, who controlled Palestine at the time, and saw this as yet another way to punish them.

3. General European guilt over anti-semitism and the Holocaust led to support for a Jewish homeland after WW2.

[Wycoff]

LoTM beat me to it.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by padillah


This assumes I know what knowledge I should have and how to aquire it. Are you suggesting I could read any book on Jewish history and be up-to-speed? Mein Kampf springs to mind as one that, I would assume, wouldn't help much.

To your point; no, asking me to read A History of the Jewish People (Hayim Ben-Sasson), or Jewish History, Jewish Religion (Israel Shahak) isn't dismissive. (Heck even
The Complete Idiot's Guide to Jewish History (Benjamin Blech) )

The generic "read a book", is.

Tom P.

I would suggest Howard Sachar, The Course of Modern Jewish History

On Zionism in particular, id suggest Walter Laquer "History of Zionism"

I didnt give you specific recommendations earlier as your tone didnt suggest you were interested in such.

[padillah]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

I would suggest Howard Sachar, The Course of Modern Jewish History

On Zionism in particular, id suggest Walter Laquer "History of Zionism"

Thank you. I will check them out as soon as I can find them (library probably).

I didnt give you specific recommendations earlier as your tone didnt suggest you were interested in such.

Then I apologize. Being a text-based message board has it's down-side. I always want to know everything. It annoys some people but it's either that or look ignorant.

Tom P.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Wycoff
LoTM is a much better source than me on this issue, but I'd guess that it stems from a few things:

So what? Israel hadn't existed for God knows how long. What was gained from reviving a long dead country by fiat over the objections of interested parties by caving into terrorists?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
So what? Israel hadn't existed for God knows how long. What was gained from reviving a long dead country by fiat over the objections of interested parties by caving into terrorists?

The League mandate, calling for a Jewish national home, was passed in 1919. What terrorists are you referring to who influenced that?

[Patroklos]

Italy wasnt the principle country demanding Brit adherence to the mandate, but it was not a minor power, and certainly had an Italian territory been suggested as a substitute, it would have been relevant.

To the victors go the spoils, is that not how Palestine ended up being antied up in the poker game of WWI in the first place?

Even if everyone was hell bent on enforcing the Leagues mandates, it could always have been superceded by another. Italy was losing its colonies anyways, I bet they could have cared less. And again, would the Allies really care if they did at that point?

No, they get just under 3 billion a year from the US, an actual decline in nominal terms of what they began to get in 1979, and a considerable decline in real terms. They could do without that, but the left in Israel wants to keep it in part as a tool against the right (if we dont listen to uncle Sam we lose 3 billion) and its seen by many as adding to US leverage. Thats disputed of course (by Arrian here for ex) and some Israelis in Likud would prefer to give up the money and avoid the leverage. However I think theres no doubt they could survive without if if they had to. You seem to have a very exageratted idea of the amount of aid Israel receives, which is not surprising given how much people talk about it.

Most of that is irrelevant to the point. I know they are viable now, but how did the get that way and how viable were they when ever bit of military hardware they used to crush their aggressive rivals were free US/British handme downs? Which is pretty much true for their first few decades. Literally divisions worth of tanks, wings upon wings of aircraft. Even now most of their equipment is not their own by any real degree, the very fact that we let them have the F-15 is charity even if they payed for them, not that they payed full price for them anyways (as an example).

Any group in similar circumstances recieving the help on the scale the Jews recieved would have similar results.

They accepted the idea of partition, and attempted to negotiate the terms. The ones who rejected it were the right wing parties, who were not in charge.

They obviously had some power, but regardless partition did not happen, so we are left with the same problem of if I put a million people in a place where do the million already there go? This was know by Jewish leaders long before the official creation of Isreal, or do you think all these thousands of Jewish settlers who were arriving before and during WWII didn't spark any problems? Whether they ignored it or just didn't care doesn't mean rational minds should not or did not know a **** storm would result.

No one wanted problems, but if they were necessary to achieve a desirable aim, they didnt look quite so intimidating compared to what everyone had gone through. IMO.

For the Jews themselves, no doubt this was true for many of them. But what about the billions of citizens of Europe and America that had to deal with this **** then and now? The war wasn't exactly kind to the population of Europe no matter where/who you were. I find it ridiculous that they couldn't have found a better, less painful solution than they did for all involved.

Not really a valid line of though, obviously they did think differently than me

but what good is history if you can't point and laugh/shake your head in disgust.

EDIT: Just so you know where I am coming from I am a very staunch supporter of Isreal NOW, they are there and thats it, and on top of that are a modern democratic nation in a sea of backwards states. I don't even support a Palestinian state, they lost out in the annal of history, sad but reality.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
What terrorists are you referring to who influenced that?

You know exactly what I'm talking about. Seing as how Israel wasn't established until much later by UN partition.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Patroklos

To the victors go the spoils, is that not how Palestine ended up being antied up in the poker game of WWI in the first place?

Even if everyone was hell bent on enforcing the Leagues mandates, it could always have been superceded by another. Italy was losing its colonies anyways, I bet they could have cared less. And again, would the Allies really care if they did at that point?

You really think that giving the Zionists say Libya would have reduced the problems? I think thats absurd. It would have traded one problem for another, and Libya had a small Jewish population, little Jewish infrastructure, and no historical Jewish claim.

Ditto for Eritrea and Italian Somaliland.

Most of that is irrelevant to the point. I know they are viable now, but how did the get that way and how viable were they when ever bit of military hardware they used to crush their aggressive rivals were free US/British handme downs? Which is pretty much true for their first few decades.

You are incorrect, they purchased weapons from UK and France.

They obviously had some power, but regardless partition did not happen,

actually it did, as Gaza and the West Bank did not end up under Israeli control. Certainly the Zionist leadership in 1946 was by no means certain that the arabs would reject the more generous UN partition plan. And if they did reject it, it was hardly up to Israel to figure out where they would go, but up to those who would reject partition.

Whether they ignored it or just didn't care doesn't mean rational minds should not or did not know a **** storm would result.

What resulted was a war in 1948-49, followed by a Jewsh state. Followed by secret negotiations that unfortunately did not succeed.

are you now expecting the 1946 Zionist leadership to not only forecast the course of the 1948 war, but the assasination of the king of Jordan, the Nasserite coup, the course of the cold war, etc, etc?

For the Jews themselves, no doubt this was true for many of them. But what about the billions of citizens of Europe and America that had to deal with this **** then and now?

For the most part no one outside of the ME had to deal with it, at least until the USSR got involved and made it a cold war issue. The Brits and French got involved at Suez, but that was due to other reasons. Surely you dont think that if not for Israel, thered have been no conflict over the canal, algeria, etc?

The war wasn't exactly kind to the population of Europe no matter where/who you were. I find it ridiculous that they couldn't have found a better, less painful solution that they did for all involved.

Ive yet to hear of one that would have worked out for everyone.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Straybow

Originally posted by Odin
After WW2 there was a sh*tload of ethnic cleansing in Eastern Europe in order to make the boundaries of ethnic groups match the new post-war political boundaries. AFAIK there is little or no demand from Germans whose parents or grandparents were from East Prussia, Silesia, the Sudetenland; or Transylvania to have a "right of return."

You are overlooking a monumental difference: those displaced German families had a Germany to go to, wherein their language and culture are the norm and they were readily accepted as full and equal citizens.

Where, again, would you expect the persecuted and displaced Jews to go?

I'm talking about the Palestinians, not the Jews.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
You know exactly what I'm talking about. Seing as how Israel wasn't established until much later by UN partition.

I dont know what youre talking about unless you say it explicitly.

In particular lots of people speak of the 1948 establishment of Israel as if it was done in a Palestine where there were no Jews, as if there had been no Jewish history there since Bar Kochba.

In fact at the time there was a Hebrew speaking Jewish society in Palestine of half a million, and a pre-existing mandate promising a Jewish national home. The decisions taken in 1948 cannnot be seen apart from those and related facts. While the question of dealing with the displaced persons of WW2 was important, it cannot be seen in isolation from the ongoing building of a Jewish society in Palestine, which in fact the Zionists had been doing since 1878, when Petach Tikva was founded.

[Odin]

Originally posted by padillah


I live in the U.S. and, unfortunatly, the welfare stqte has left several generations with a bogus sense of entitlement. There are people on welfare that I've heard complain because they couldn't get an HDTV until next month because they're check is too small.

It really gets to me.

Tom P.

The "welfare queens living the high life" meme is right-wing propaganda.